Personally... I Blame Brexit

[threegee]

Rather than the little local difficulty we've been fed by the media it rather looks like the second spanish civil war is about to break out.  A complete mishandling of the matter by Madrid being the major factor.  What we are seeing in Spain is what we've always been careful to avoid in the UK.  It's also what could easily have happened if there had been an EU-style attempt to ignore or overturn the referendum result.

The Catalans seem to be going about it in the right way in launching their own currency.  If only the Greeks had had this much sense, or at least the sense to ignore the ECB and let the printing presses run whilst they still had the ability.  Spain's plot to use Brexit to enslave the Gibraltarians is now looking like a silly joke, as yet another plank of the remainer case (the allegedly sensitive Gibraltar issue) is kicked away.

Will the Basques seize this opportunity, or will the EU's mounting problems surface somewhere else first?  The Leave campaign said we needed to be clear of the EU as soon as possible to avoid getting dragged into the looming mess with British forces becoming involved - we are not clear yet!

[mercuryg]

9 hours ago, threegee said:

This post is one of your best yet, so here's my take: 

what we've always been careful to avoid in the UK.  It's also what could easily have happened if there had been an EU-style attempt to ignore or overturn the referendum result.

What, civil war? Between whom? What are you on about? Are you suggesting all the 'leave' brigade would have picked up their pitchforks and waged war against the rest? I venture they's have stayed at their keyboards and ranted incessantly, like the rest of us, and nothing else would have happened.

The Catalans seem to be going about it in the right way in launching their own currency.

Good for them; will it be accepted in exchange, though? What can they back it up with? Not as simple as 'letting the printing presses roll'; because a piece of paper says its worth something, doesn't mean it is - a bit more too it than that. (Good for the Catalans, though; if they want and feel they deserve independence, why shouldn't they go for it?)

 The Leave campaign said we needed to be clear of the EU as soon as possible to avoid getting dragged into the looming mess with British forces becoming involved - we are not clear yet!

Indeed, and unless your Brexit vote included us leaving or the dissolution of NATO, we never will be. You seriously don't think that leaving Europe would mean us washing our hands of all this, do you? I mean, really, you don't? The EU Peacekeeping force, for example, works hand in hand with NATO to do it's job. 

 

[threegee]

Thanks for the compliment Merk, even if it was a tad backhanded!

It would have sparked mass civil disobedience. The targets would have been obvious, and included the political classes.  There's a very good chance that the military would have become involved, and it wouldn't have been on the side of the politicos.  We've been a lot closer to a military takeover in our lifetimes than a lot of people would care to admit.  As the revolution would have been on behalf of the monarchy and country, the Queen would have had no alternative but to suspend parliament and (after lots of consultation) appoint people who would command public respect.  Basically our political system would have finally exceeded all former cronyism, and made itself redundant.  Not too many people would have shed tears about that.

The ruling classes know this, and that their tenure isn't as firm as they pretend; hence why the referendum result could have be nothing other than binding.  Large numbers of them still believe they can hoodwink the public though.  Blair and Osborne are not alone!

Catalonia will be overstamping Euro notes, as the Greeks should have done.  It really doesn't matter if it's accepted outside Catalonia at the moment as long as local trade proceeds.  Official acceptance at the local level is all that is required.  What is the Euro backed by?  The answer to that is nothing but promises the German taxpayer isn't really aware of - yet!  What happens when the German taxpayer wakes up and says enough?  Merkel is already struggling to form another government, and is going to have to make major compromises in order to cling on to power.

On NATO: Just because there's mutual interest in one sphere don't run away with the idea that this extends to others.The EU doesn't actually want any part in NATO (hence they don't pay their dues), and NATO wouldn't become involved.  Our mutual friend Mr Trump would make sure of this.  As the snowflakes are told it's the EU that has maintained peace in Europe since 1945 why would "Europe" need an Anglo Saxon dominated and controlled body?   The EU is busting a gut to form its own army and a beefed up civil intervention force. But this has to be done by stealth, or even more people will smell the Juncker rat.  Spain doesn't present them with the desire excuse - quite yet.  They'd actually want a total mess in Spain, so they could step in and compartmentalise it into EU regions.

[mercuryg]

1 hour ago, threegee said:

Thanks for the compliment Merk, even if it was a tad backhanded!

You're welcome.

It would have sparked mass civil disobedience.

To cut a long story short but, what? Are you actually seriously suggesting that had the government overturned or ignored the results of a referendum in which barley half those with the right to vote bothered to do we would have seen 'mass civil disobedience'? Really? That does appear to be what you're saying, and then that 'there's a good chance' the military would have got involved? Who, other than you, says so? 

Have you actually taken the time to talk to people - to, not at - other than those on here, in the UK, about what their main concerns are? Do you truly think Brexit even figures in the top ten of Mr and Mrs Average, with their couple of kids, income that gets them by and a nice little house with a mortgage in suburbia? Here's the thing: that category makes up the vast, vast majority of my friends - and I have many, in various different parts of the UK - and not one of them, not one single person among them, would have even thought twice about resorting to mass civil disobedience had the government taken a different task: they would have said - had their been a second referendum - 'boring, here we go again' or, had the government done nothing, 'well, what did we vote for?' and then got up the next morning, and packed Johnny and Mary off to school, and then the next, day, and the next, and the next...as life goes on. Or, were you somehow expecting Mr and Mrs Average to go out at night, or at weekend, or take time off work, to go out and be civilly disobedient? If you were, you'd be very disappointed. Here's a thing - I lost count of the number of Mr and Mrs Averages who asked me, in the days following the vote, what it was all about (that's following, i.e after); but it didn't surprise me because, in the grand scheme of things, it's not important. I never, ever hear people talk about it anymore - it was a hot topic before the vote, mainly because the news on TV and the papers carried nothing else - because, quite simply, it's long forgotten, and not of interest.

So, a challenge for you: go to a pub, bar, cafe, restaurant - in the UK - and ask people, at random, what their biggest concerns in life are at the moment. Don't bother taking a pencil to mark down those who say 'Brexit' or any other allusion to the UK leaving Europe, because their won't be any. 

As for the rest of your post, Spain is Spain, let them do what they want, but don;t be at all surprised if - if it does turn to civil war - UK forces become involved, whether we are in the EU or not bt then.

You really do think this issue is far more important to the average Joe than it actually is.

 

 

 

[Brian Cross]

On 28/10/2017 at 23:01, threegee said:

Thanks for the compliment Merk, even if it was a tad backhanded!

It would have sparked mass civil disobedience. The targets would have been obvious, and included the political classes.  There's a very good chance that the military would have become involved, and it wouldn't have been on the side of the politicos.  We've been a lot closer to a military takeover in our lifetimes than a lot of people would care to admit.  As the revolution would have been on behalf of the monarchy and country, the Queen would have had no alternative but to suspend parliament and (after lots of consultation) appoint people who would command public respect.  Basically our political system would have finally exceeded all former cronyism, and made itself redundant.  Not too many people would have shed tears about that.

The ruling classes know this, and that their tenure isn't as firm as they pretend; hence why the referendum result could have be nothing other than binding.  Large numbers of them still believe they can hoodwink the public though.  Blair and Osborne are not alone!

Catalonia will be overstamping Euro notes, as the Greeks should have done.  It really doesn't matter if it's accepted outside Catalonia at the moment as long as local trade proceeds.  Official acceptance at the local level is all that is required.  What is the Euro backed by?  The answer to that is nothing but promises the German taxpayer isn't really aware of - yet!  What happens when the German taxpayer wakes up and says enough?  Merkel is already struggling to form another government, and is going to have to make major compromises in order to cling on to power.

On NATO: Just because there's mutual interest in one sphere don't run away with the idea that this extends to others.The EU doesn't actually want any part in NATO (hence they don't pay their dues), and NATO wouldn't become involved.  Our mutual friend Mr Trump would make sure of this.  As the snowflakes are told it's the EU that has maintained peace in Europe since 1945 why would "Europe" need an Anglo Saxon dominated and controlled body?   The EU is busting a gut to form its own army and a beefed up civil intervention force. But this has to be done by stealth, or even more people will smell the Juncker rat.  Spain doesn't present them with the desire excuse - quite yet.  They'd actually want a total mess in Spain, so they could step in and compartmentalise it into EU regions.

Well said