The State We're In

[threegee]

... This is not a crime but its the start as his attitude was, I will do as I like when I like, no respect for others. Another person I observed yesterday at the hospital, a young lady with mobile phone having a conversation over the phone, theres big bliddy noticed everywhere that say's switch off mobile phones whilst on the premises, again I don't suppose that its a crime but these people are ill educated and have no respect for others, my remark on ill educated is not in any way directed at teachers or schools because I would imagine that half of these people never bothered to turn up at school anyway and developed the Ill do what I want when I want attitude at an early age. ...

Here's the flaw in socialism. If you give someone something by right then they don't appreciate it. What's worse they don't appreciate other people's rights, and there's no responsibility attached to those rights. Even leftie politicians now appreciate this - hence New Labour's love affair with the free market.

There's another angle and that's that the service providers themselves - doctors and nurses in this instance - don't have a real relationship with their patients; it's just production-line healthcare; counting numbers and targets. When patients don't respect health workers this only reinforces their disenchantment with their vocation. If you are not getting job satisfaction it's morally OK to demand more money and to stop trying.

Add into the mix the politician's dishonesty in not telling people that resources are limited and that this or that simply isn't affordable without damaging the general economy and you have the recipe for a more and more expensive downward spiral.

There is a solution, but it's not capable of being expressed in a sound bite. Some sort of voucher system has to feature - even the possibility of giving some of your vouchers to someone in more need should be considered. There's now value placed on the supply end of the health service but not such constraints at the demand end.

It's human nature that people will only appreciate something they have to give to get. I'm not talking just about money here - respect has to feature too!

Government after government have played the law and order card at election time but not one have delivered.

Promise the earth to get elected then look after yourself and your chummies. How can we break this mould when the system desperately needs to reform itself and has no incentive to? That's the real question!

[Pete]

Promise the earth to get elected then look after yourself and your chummies. How can we break this mould when the system desperately needs to reform itself and has no incentive to? That's the real question!

There is only one way to change the system and that is a completely new political party thats prepared to stand up and say wrong is wrong whatever the cost in votes. Problem is where does this party come from?

It would have to be a party made up of people that have got morale values and have the necessary financial and economic experience and would not be afraid to make decisions even if it meant loosing votes and sadly that is the real problem. If joe public don't vote for you then you do not win an election.

People in this country only live for today and if Gordon and the likes give them something the day before an election they will vote for him, two days after the election he will probably make another statement but tough your stuck with him till the next election (British jobs for British People) Gordon's comment not mine.

[Pete]

There is a solution, but it's not capable of being expressed in a sound bite. Some sort of voucher system has to feature - even the possibility of giving some of your vouchers to someone in more need should be considered. There's now value placed on the supply end of the health service but not such constraints at the demand end.

It's human nature that people will only appreciate something they have to give to get. I'm not talking just about money here - respect has to feature too!

That sounds like a workable idea as I believe you should not get nothing for nothing. Need should come before I want.

[Malcolm Robinson]

Well this is staring to look like an interesting thread!

People being held to account for their own actions, instead of hanging their hat on any flimsy excuse they can think up to get out of any repercussions for what they have done.

Responsible, transparent and accountable government, Pete I am shocked!

Don’t we like to think our society has these qualities now? If it hasn’t why not, as most people seem to agree with them?

We can get an insight into the way government works nowadays looking at what is happening at county level and the introduction of this new Unitary Authority. Despite a majority vote against it is going ahead, promises made during the initial stages are being rescinded, promised saving made due to staff cuts etc are being thrown into salary increases, greater involvement and participation by the communities it serves looks to be just lip service as representative numbers are decimated. Its bull and costly bull at that and not just in time and money.

Pete your new party comes about when someone stands up and says enough is enough!

[threegee]

...two days after the election he will probably make another statement but tough your stuck with him till the next election (British jobs for British People) Gordon's comment not mine.

Yep, I think quite a few people noted that particular sound bite. But it seems to mean something quite different to Gordon than to everyone else.

BTW did you notice that the strikes were sound bited as "the wrong thing to do!" But at least they produced a hundred or so jobs out of Total - more than the billions he's splurged on digging himself in deeper to crisis have. He doesn't even understand the basic strategy when you find yourself in a hole; those two words of sage advice everyone else can quote.

[Hamburger Pimp]

sound bited

When you do that to the language, it makes the baby Jesus cry.

[Pete]

Yep, I think quite a few people noted that particular sound bite. But it seems to mean something quite different to Gordon than to everyone else.

BTW did you notice that the strikes were sound bited as "the wrong thing to do!" But at least they produced a hundred or so jobs out of Total - more than the billions he's splurged on digging himself in deeper to crisis have. He doesn't even understand the basic strategy when you find yourself in a hole; those two words of sage advice everyone else can quote.

I range my local MP this morning (Leicester, one of Gordons lot) as I needed some advise only to find that the office was closed until Monday, Well I thought to myself I will ring the Houses of Parliament because I know that they have an office there. I managed to get through to the switch board and they put me through to my local MP's office only to receive a recorded message saying, we are closed today please ring you local constituency office. Eh, am I correct in thinking that they do not want to answer questions because they have not got a clue.

[Malcolm Robinson]

I range my local MP this morning (Leicester, one of Gordons lot) as I needed some advise only to find that the office was closed until Monday, Well I thought to myself I will ring the Houses of Parliament because I know that they have an office there. I managed to get through to the switch board and they put me through to my local MP's office only to receive a recorded message saying, we are closed today please ring you local constituency office. Eh, am I correct in thinking that they do not want to answer questions because they have not got a clue.

Well done Pete!

You tried to access a system which is there for you to use and which you pay for only to find it not working. You may need to think laterally, I tend to go up the food chain because when you get the head honchos involved they normally make sure a minion has to see to you, probably the person you wanted in the first place!

[threegee]

...I tend to go up the food chain...

Food chain? I'd always imagined "public service" as a food trough!

[Malcolm Robinson]

Food chain? I'd always imagined "public service" as a food trough!

Much better analogy GGG!

Having said that I have to say I have found a lot of decent, earnest, hard working people in the public sector who get tainted by the actions of a few. The problem is that the few have now coloured public perception to such a degree that it casts a shadow over all the public sector.

[Pete]

Well done Pete!

You tried to access a system which is there for you to use and which you pay for only to find it not working. You may need to think laterally, I tend to go up the food chain because when you get the head honchos involved they normally make sure a minion has to see to you, probably the person you wanted in the first place!

If I had manèged to get through to the local constituent office I would have preferred to speak to one of the assistants Malcolm, because I would have probably got more sense from them.

My local MP before New Labour came into being could be contacted any time and he was a good man, oh how times have changed

[Pete]

Well this is staring to look like an interesting thread!

People being held to account for their own actions, instead of hanging their hat on any flimsy excuse they can think up to get out of any repercussions for what they have done.

Responsible, transparent and accountable government, Pete I am shocked!

Don’t we like to think our society has these qualities now? If it hasn’t why not, as most people seem to agree with them?

We can get an insight into the way government works nowadays looking at what is happening at county level and the introduction of this new Unitary Authority. Despite a majority vote against it is going ahead, promises made during the initial stages are being rescinded, promised saving made due to staff cuts etc are being thrown into salary increases, greater involvement and participation by the communities it serves looks to be just lip service as representative numbers are decimated. Its bull and costly bull at that and not just in time and money.

Pete your new party comes about when someone stands up and says enough is enough!

Malcolm, I would be willing to stand up and say, enough is enough but I do not have the correct educational qualifications but I would give 100% support in any way I could to any new party that seriously wants to make change

[Malcolm Robinson]

Malcolm, I would be willing to stand up and say, enough is enough but I do not have the correct educational qualifications but I would give 100% support in any way I could to any new party that seriously wants to make change

And what educational qualifications are those Pete? Do you have to have a first from Cambridge to be able to !*!@# up an economy! Personally I would rather give my vote to someone I could identify with and who knew what the results would mean to the average guy when making their decisions. Most of these people are career politicans with no experience in the world you and I inhabit! In these times of recession and belt tightening they have just awarded themselves massive pay rises, shows just what contempt they hold the rest of us in! They now pontificate over the bankers bonuses they are legally obliged to pay out coz they didn't do their job right.........if you live in a greenhouse don't throw stones! It looks to me like a whole debarcle of double standards and hypocrisy, adjectives which are becoming common place in the political areas these days.

[Pete]

And what educational qualifications are those Pete? Do you have to have a first from Cambridge to be able to !*!@# up an economy! Personally I would rather give my vote to someone I could identify with and who knew what the results would mean to the average guy when making their decisions. Most of these people are career politicans with no experience in the world you and I inhabit! In these times of recession and belt tightening they have just awarded themselves massive pay rises, shows just what contempt they hold the rest of us in! They now pontificate over the bankers bonuses they are legally obliged to pay out coz they didn't do their job right.........if you live in a greenhouse don't throw stones! It looks to me like a whole debarcle of double standards and hypocrisy, adjectives which are becoming common place in the political areas these days.

I could not agree more Malcolm about qualifications, sadly there are a lot of good people that can do a good job but do not have the bit of paper to say they can, the bit of paper sadly wins every time. I am not knocking all qualified people as there are some excellent people with qualifications

Yes failure does get rewarded you only have to look at Northern Rock, the failures no doubt have the bit of paper that says they can do the job.

Roll on the general election, theres gota be better that what we have at the moment. It's good to see Ken Clark back on the political stage.

[Malcolm Robinson]

Pete,

We have an electoral system which owes more of its being to the 18th & 19th centuries than anything resembling the 21st we find ourselves in, the party system being a principle part. (If anyone can explain the relevance of party politics in local elections please feel free to explain it to me coz I just don’t see what that has to do with getting the road outside Mrs Smith’s house repaired? If anything it distorts the picture! ) The country is in a mess and at the very least at times like this you need to be able to pick the best people to oversee the workings of government, irrespective of their political allegiances. It has happened before and produced one of the most publically respected political figures in the last 100 years. You mentioned Clarkie and however you feel about his politics he is usually worth listening to. When the media needed an opposition view in the midst of the financial crisis they didn’t go to Osborn they went to Cable, a guy who has no chance of being a minister but because of his wealth of personal expertise actually knew what he was talking about and the public agreed with him. At best we see initiatives based on outdated ideologies which do more harm than good, its ridiculous! Government should be about being fluid and responsive and all the while trying to be proactive in a way which benefits the people it serves not trying to stick to the dogmas of the past, there is no progress in that. The massively long odds gamble taken by the current Gov is akin to laying the country’s testicles on a board and selling a hammer to anyone who wants to use it! If you change them what do you get, more of the same because they have sold their soul to become electable and it’s the party system which has made them do it! So what do you do, vote for an independent, you will probably be wasting your vote because of the way the system works, they will never be allowed into a position of real power. Mainstream political nominations are overseen by the major political parties so anyone with innovative ideas is immediately ‘blackballed’ and quite often replaced with parachuted in figures or constituencies are told who they must have on their shortlists and that is called positive discrimination? The whole thing stinks of nepotism and backslapping and may well be the reason why the electorate are only given certain choices from time to time.

Rant over!

[Pete]

Pete,

We have an electoral system which owes more of its being to the 18th & 19th centuries than anything resembling the 21st we find ourselves in, the party system being a principle part. (If anyone can explain the relevance of party politics in local elections please feel free to explain it to me coz I just don’t see what that has to do with getting the road outside Mrs Smith’s house repaired? If anything it distorts the picture! ) The country is in a mess and at the very least at times like this you need to be able to pick the best people to oversee the workings of government, irrespective of their political allegiances. It has happened before and produced one of the most publically respected political figures in the last 100 years. You mentioned Clarkie and however you feel about his politics he is usually worth listening to. When the media needed an opposition view in the midst of the financial crisis they didn’t go to Osborn they went to Cable, a guy who has no chance of being a minister but because of his wealth of personal expertise actually knew what he was talking about and the public agreed with him. At best we see initiatives based on outdated ideologies which do more harm than good, its ridiculous! Government should be about being fluid and responsive and all the while trying to be proactive in a way which benefits the people it serves not trying to stick to the dogmas of the past, there is no progress in that. The massively long odds gamble taken by the current Gov is akin to laying the country’s testicles on a board and selling a hammer to anyone who wants to use it! If you change them what do you get, more of the same because they have sold their soul to become electable and it’s the party system which has made them do it! So what do you do, vote for an independent, you will probably be wasting your vote because of the way the system works, they will never be allowed into a position of real power. Mainstream political nominations are overseen by the major political parties so anyone with innovative ideas is immediately ‘blackballed’ and quite often replaced with parachuted in figures or constituencies are told who they must have on their shortlists and that is called positive discrimination? The whole thing stinks of nepotism and backslapping and may well be the reason why the electorate are only given certain choices from time to time.

Rant over!

I do agree Malcolm we are in 21 century and as you say not a lots changed we still have poverty, hospital waiting lists etc and we are in a mess because of these political parties.

Was it not Cromwell that changed the system and we are still living in that system although we get a vote and your right they do have short lists for constituencies. My local MP is a lady and Labor had a lady only shortlist for the area, I am not against women MP's but what happened to best person for the job. My local MP was the one that put forward the amendment for the smoking ban, a complete ban in pubs and clubs and working mens clubs, I do not see working mens clubs as public places but my local working mens club soon will be, it will be fill of demolition workers as the smoking ban has almost killed it and why? because someone who probably has never been in a working mens club made a decision for the membership and I very much doubt if she has a CIA membership card, bring on the ballot box.

It is good to see Ken Clark getting involved again as I do have the greatest respect for him as an MP. I felt ha was a good chancellor of the Exchequer when the Conservatives were in government. Cable well your right he will never become a minister and no chance of forming a government. My problem with that party is they would sit on the fence to much before making a decision. Was it Blair that appointed ministers outside of the Labor party when he was Prime Minister or have I got that wrong?

Just spotted this on the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7877218.stm

Perhaps Gordon ought to read it, ops I forgot he didn't mean what he said he meant something else

[Malcolm Robinson]

Cromwell killed off the idea that the monarch had ‘divine’ right to govern a country and so initiated government by elected representatives; although in those days I guess that meant his mates, as has been ever the case!

If discrimination is outlawed then positive discrimination should not be allowed either and for this reason I dislike imposed short lists, not to mention the wishes of the constituencies involved!

Oh and Pete, she might have CIA membership but I guess not CUI.........

Yes Pete Blair did appoint from outside his party but maybe we should look hard at the people he appointed!

[Monsta®]

I would have been glad to have lived under my wood side, and to have kept a flock of sheep, rather than to have undertaken this government.

[Pete]

Cromwell killed off the idea that the monarch had ‘divine’ right to govern a country and so initiated government by elected representatives; although in those days I guess that meant his mates, as has been ever the case!

If discrimination is outlawed then positive discrimination should not be allowed either and for this reason I dislike imposed short lists, not to mention the wishes of the constituencies involved!

Oh and Pete, she might have CIA membership but I guess not CUI.........

Yes Pete Blair did appoint from outside his party but maybe we should look hard at the people he appointed!

Ops your right Malcolm, I did mean CUI Now I will have the men in black knocking on my door

I believe one that he appointed was caught in bed with a Chelsea shirt on, before Blair appointed him of course.

I can understand why they had shortlist as women MP's are in the minority but I do agree this is discrimination and may not be the best person for the job.

[Pete]

I would have been glad to have lived under my wood side, and to have kept a flock of sheep, rather than to have undertaken this government.

To be honest Monsta I have often though that I would have liked to live in those day as well, modern day life revolves around the clock. You have to be at work at a certain time, you can not leave work until a set time, buses, trains all have time tables. A horse and cart can go anytime no restriction, not having to declare your earnings as a couple of chickens every six month and dozen eggs payed your income tax, theres a lot to be said for those days.

I think we would have been outside the jurisdiction of the Sheriff of Nottingham so deer hunting would have been OK. To live a life where the government was divorced from the common people, that would have been fantastic but don't that sound a bit like today, government divorced from the common people I mean

[Monsta®]

To be honest Monsta I have often though that I would have liked to live in those day as well, modern day life revolves around the clock. You have to be at work at a certain time, you can not leave work until a set time, buses, trains all have time tables. A horse and cart can go anytime no restriction, not having to declare your earnings as a couple of chickens every six month and dozen eggs payed your income tax, theres a lot to be said for those days.

I think we would have been outside the jurisdiction of the Sheriff of Nottingham so deer hunting would have been OK. To live a life where the government was divorced from the common people, that would have been fantastic but don't that sound a bit like today, government divorced from the common people I mean

i and you could smoke your tabs in the inns and taverns. mind you would need to watch out for the dreaded black death!

[Pete]

i and you could smoke your tabs in the inns and taverns. mind you would need to watch out for the dreaded black death!

I and the straw thatch on the roof incase your tabs set it on fire, mind the beer would have been cheap

[Monsta®]

I and the straw thatch on the roof incase your tabs set it on fire, mind the beer would have been cheap

aye only one groat and a turnip and you can drive (by horse) home P*ssed

[Malcolm Robinson]

Course when you caught the inevitable infection carried by the dubious ladies of said tavern there would be no anti-biotics...........

[Pete]

Course when you caught the inevitable infection carried by the dubious ladies of said tavern there would be no anti-biotics...........

True Malcome but you would not have to live under Gordons rules, could be a good trade off.