The Truth about Pit Closures

[Maggie/915]

A vote is to be held today in Parliament to establish whether Margaret Thatcher's Government misled the nation in 1984.

Well done Ian Lavery

Page 2 The Journal today

'It was really a political dispute, not just an industrial dispute'

'If the government at the time lied to us, then we demand to know why it happened and we demand an apology'

[tomtom]

...and how many mis-truths do you think Scargill and his crowd spewed out?

[Andy Millne]

'If the government at the time lied to us, then we demand to know why it happened and we demand an apology'

 

To what end? Would it not be better actually putting some time into resolving current issues not ones 30 years in the past?

[Maggie/915]

This was one of the questions allegedly asked by our MP.

Either way the government line yesterday was not to answer and say similar things Fourgee.

Have you ever thought about politics for a career.

History has a way of judging outcomes regardless of argument and counter argument.

Otherwise you have a pantomime response !

That is 'oh no he didn't '

'oh yes he did'

In this case as Margaret Thatcher is dead another argument is that she cannot defend herself therefore there is no case to answer!

The question for today is, in my opinion, whether our country is better or worse because we have no coal mines.

[Malcolm Robinson]

Maggs,

 

The question for me is why the heck are we still harping back to something which split the country instead of focussing on somethign current or likely in the near future which could unite the country.  God knows we have enough contemporary problems without looking backwards.  

 

And I am not tryring to evade the issue of Parliment being mislead, that should have its own independant oversight.  Pity Town Councils don't!!!!!!!

[threegee]

He's grandstanding for the benefit of what Labour's (American) spin doctors currently call the core 35% strategy.  That's the percentage of the population that have no knowledge of the issues facing the country, and still dumbly believe that "Labour is for the workers".

 

They truly believe that they can win power by BS'ing only one third of the voters, whilst actually promoting liberal-elitist policies that undermine the wage structure of the lowest paid. It's a reliance on apathy and ignorance that's is sickeningly cynical.  They duck all the real issues with PR garbage like "that's not what we are focussing on right now".

 

Well.. Lavery is focussing on the past because he has nothing to offer for the future. In fact it's questionable if he knows what kind of political party he is now in, let alone what century it is!

 

But, don't look too closely at that past either, else you might discover just how catastrophic his tenure of the NUM was.

 

 

Under his leadership membership of the union fell dramatically from over 200,000 to just 1,855 members in 2011

 

Can only be his core 0.01% strategy! 

 

But, hey, there's an election imminent so what brilliant initiatives are we going to see?  Ones which are totally forgotten about within hours of the polls closing!

[Malcolm Robinson]

If we are going to investigate 'old' cases.......here's one that should never be 'closed' until all the perps have been arrested. 

 

http://cathyfox.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/gilberthorpes-dossier-to-margaret-thatcher-on-child-abuse-lost/

[Maggie/915]

Sadly the past has a future.

Where are we being misled and why?

Think of the effect on our area where all industry has ended.

Our town has an unemployment problem.

The vacuum created with no jobs is serious and damaging in my opinion.

I would like to think there is an answer.

The new build initiative and PFI, do not seem to be the answer.

It would be great to see our country making 'Stuff' again.

What we made in the past was generally considered well made and quality .

Forget the arguments about who is at fault that is history but what can we do to secure future employment and a decent lifestyle for our children.

Once again the past has a future.

What can we learn and do to secure the future.

Do any of the parties have an answer.

Seems to me that all parties simply blame each other.

The Trurh is important.

Very sad when governments past or present feel the need to lie.

[Tonyp]

My gaffer new scar gill and had dinner with him he wasn't very complimentary about him he told me he thought him very self consumed

Not telling you anymore secrets....

[threegee]

If we are going to investigate 'old' cases.......here's one that should never be 'closed' until all the perps have been arrested. 

 

http://cathyfox.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/gilberthorpes-dossier-to-margaret-thatcher-on-child-abuse-lost/

 

What about 1400 current cases that The Labour Party would rather no one mentioned?

 

https://twitter.com/RobBurberry/status/525946048888713216

[Maggie/915]

The truth is important.

Two or more wrongs do not make something right.

'I lied because someone else did' is no answer.

Changing the subject is a way of not answering the question.

Politicians are the experts.

[threegee]

Maggie, the truth about the Miners strike most people simply don't want to hear.  The nearest I've heard recently was from Neil Kinnock.  He frankly, honestly admits his own mistakes and regrets from that period, and has certainly gone up in my estimations.  Scargill - still living in his fantasy world - won't even discuss it.  It's easy to see why that is.  The present-day NUM holds a pretty balanced view, and it is in no way aligned with what Lavery wants people to believe. But, they understandably have to tread a precarious path not to upset too many in the mining and ex-mining community.

 

Notice that there's a general election coming up.  Lavery is feeding on local people's sensibilities in order to further his own ends.  He has nothing to offer the present or the future, so must invoke the past.  The Westminster liberal elites regard him as a joke, and his very presence as our representative sends the message that they want to hear.  That message is that we ignorant provincials don't even know what century we are living in, and that we need them to do our thinking for us.

 

The message that they don't want to hear is the UKIP message that ordinary people refuse to be manipulated by PR and spin; told what and how they must think, and will no longer dumbly vote against their own interests in order to advance the careers of a new age, produce-nothing, unprincipled, believe-in-nothing-but-self-advancement ruling class.

 

It's a confusing new world.  There are no people to demonise; only people with unenlightened self-interest who need to be taught that others aren't as dumb as they cosily assumed, and those with enlightened self-interest who always knew that to be the case.  Both Communism and Socialism failed because they took no account of "the interest tree".  The tree that starts at root self-interest, moves rapidly on to family interest, then to local community interest, and expands upwards and outward to the entire universe.  Balance your view of this tree and life is good; focus too much on any part of this tree and things become very troublesome.  Try to distort the view of this tree, to pretend that one part looks like a different part, and you get er... the modern-day Labour Party! 

[Maggie/915]

I agree with most of you analysis.

The conclusion is the problem.

A Distorted viewpoint is not merely the domain of the Labour Party.

[threegee]

I agree with most of you analysis.

The conclusion is the problem.

A Distorted viewpoint is not merely the domain of the Labour Party.

 

Yes, the LD's have a pretty distorted view.  They focus on the local community part of the interest tree, and avert their gaze from the national level.  They can't see what is really happening at the national level because they are totally hung-up on the supra-national (the EU).  Because of this they fail massively as internationalists too.

 

And, whey hey, the Greens!  They have their heads in the air, constantly gazing and wondering about the upper echelons of the interest tree, and refuse to even consider the roots. To them the roots and trunk of the tree are subservient to the twigs and leaves, if they matter at all. They are not only battling unenlightened self-interest, they are taking on enlightened self-interest too.

 

What about the Tories you say?  Well the Tories have tried to be all things to all people and are currently in self-destruct mode (note the recent "cut the green crap" instruction from Cameron). Just as Blair/Brown tried to emulate Thatcher, Cameron has tried to emulate Blair.  Cameron and Blair are now near totally indistinguishable. Soon all that will be left of the Tory Party is the same sort of dumb tribal loyalists that Labour is always accused of depending on.

If you want to see a view of Cameron from a thinking, traditional, Tory perspective then you couldn't do better than this:

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2014/09/a-tory-ukip-pact-would-be-bad-for-britain.html

 

...the Tory Party has become, in recent years, a socially liberal, globalist, pro-immigration egalitarian party, committed to permanent British membership of the EU.

 

This is not because the Tory leadership believe in any of these things. It is because they believe in nothing, and so readily absorb the spirit of the age. It rushes into the vacuum in their heads and hearts.

 

The Tory decision to deal with Blairism by embracing it left no sentient being in any doubt that the Tory Party is simply an alternative New Labour formation.

 

So... with Labour in self-destruct mode too; it's vital Scottish base not only under attack from constitutional change, but core support defecting in droves to the Scot Nats, it's all getting rather interesting.

 

It looks like the best guess at the GE result is the Scot Nats calling all the shots under Miliband, or Ukip calling the shots under Cameron.  No one this side of the border should relish the former, whatever their traditional loyalties. The fact that Miliband is such a klutz - he can't even act like a good Jew - means that we'll be bled even more by the Jocks.  And, I think that many people in Ukip would rather see a pathetic, neutered, one-off Miliband administration than do any sort of deal with Blair II.  But.. six months is a long time in politics, and if Ukip continues to pick up support we may just see our very first truly democratic government, messy though it will surely be. The shock to both Tory and Labour would bring in a new era, mirroring the changes at the beginning of the 20th century.   

[Symptoms]

GGG - what did you mean by  "- he can't even act like a good Jew -" ?  It's a phrase that can have a number of meanings.

 

You're could be right about the Jockosnats and UKIP holding sway after the GE.  I can picture that useless sod Millleeeeeband cozying up to the Jockos and Cameroooony (if he's still in place) doing the same with Nigel so we can all look forward to the scourge of more coalitian government. 

[threegee]

GGG - what did you mean by  "- he can't even act like a good Jew -" ?  It's a phrase that can have a number of meanings.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11196959/Maureen-Lipman-abandons-Ed-Miliband-over-Israel.html

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11198691/Labours-first-Jewish-leader-is-losing-the-Jewish-vote.html

 

What those don't relate is how he got to where he is today, and exactly who footed the bill.  I will leave that as an (internet search) exercise for the reader.  My only observation would be that you don't take the moola, smack the generous donors in the chops at the first opportunity, and then expect that there will be no consequences.  British Jewry is a powerful and coherent force in the land. Its loyalty is finely divided, deep, and spans multiple generations; its wrath is something even gentiles should do their very best to avoid. It seems that it wasn't just Ed's father that suffered massively conflicted loyalties!

[Adam Hogg]

To what end? Would it not be better actually putting some time into resolving current issues not ones 30 years in the past?

To be Honest Fourgee if that view was taken with everything, would Hillsbough have been investigated, the child abuse scandal involving major celebrities, the Iraq Inquiry, Phone Hacking, etc.

 

I understand these issues I have named are all ones that people died as a result in most of them but they also destroyed people lives too.

 

But what people seem to forget is the Miners strike destroyed peoples lives also, People were put of the bread line, had there futures destroyed by being Blacklisted by the Coal Board, and even in some could not live with what they had done like of going back to work during the strike.

Every time I think of the people who had there lives destroyed during the strike I think of the film Brassed off which gives a real incite into the lives of Miners during and just after the strike, This scene best describes the feelings and conditions of some:

 

After this scene is done the character goes to the colliery which has just closed and he lost his job at and tries to hang himself, sadly this was true in some cases.

 

If an Inquiry was done on the miners strike, it would mean closure of the matter for several people who knew the government lied to them, who knew the NUM's tactics where not right and who were not believed till only last year that it was a plan all along.

[threegee]

....

 

If an Inquiry was done on the miners strike, it would mean closure of the matter for several people who knew the government lied to them, who knew the NUM's tactics where not right and who were not believed till only last year that it was a plan all along.

 

An enquiry is never going to happen Adam, for the simple reason that the Westminster elites don't give a damn. That goes for Labour too. In fact it goes especially for Labour!  Despite all the rhetoric, at no point in history has Labour ever reversed or even amended any Tory industrial legislation, though they've had numerous opportunities to do so.  Why?  Because they essentially recognise that it was needed.  They are masters of the two-faced con!

 

What is your enquiry going to achieve apart from making a few fat-cat establishment figures even richer with the countless millions that will be thrown at it?  The truth is out there; you don't need a millionaire lawyer to point you to it.  Let's have just a tiny fraction of this sum spent on our local services instead of lining the pockets of the Westminster inner circle!

 

Lavery could have been on his legs years ago on this one.  He wasn't - don't you see it's simply electioneering, and will be buried at the first opportunity?

 

We've addressed "the government lied" here before and there simply is no evidence for this.  The government was economical with the truth, the government misled, that's for sure.  But Scargill had a hidden agenda too, and it was his stubborn refusal to negotiate that led to the all the bitterness, otherwise it would have gone the way of any other strike and be ancient history now.  You'd have to drag Arthur kicking and screaming before any enquiry, and he would be entirely uncooperative and say as little as possible.  The only sort of "closure" we are going to get is to remove this area from the political machinations of the establishment and put it back on the path to prosperity.

 

Labour voters are now facing a triple bluff:  Lavery's electioneering bluff; the shill bluff that he in any way represents what Labour's liberal elitists themselves believe, and the bluff that Labour represents the interests of the common man in this country when they are consistently working to undermine the wages of the lower paid, whilst happily feathering their own nests.  The prospect that even a small number of tribal Labour voters can see through these layers of bluff fills them with dread.  Their (apparent) rapid shift on immigration, and total confusion, or indeed failure to acknowledge major issues like the economy, electoral reform, or the EU vividly illustrates what an unprincipled bunch of self-serving shysters they are.  No one from Labour will come on here and discuss the real issues intelligently because they know they'd be exposed, and then the game would be up.  So come on Mr Lavery, you undoubtedly read this; let's have a discussion on real issues facing the electorate!  For once treat your electors like intelligent beings; show us all that you are worthy of a vote, and not just an ignorant and embarrassing shill being used by the Westminster elites. The same invitation is extended to other parties.

[Symptoms]

Let's not forget that Offical Inquiry into the Dunblane Massacre ... the report was 'sealed' for 100 years.  Why was it sealed?  Various leaks over the years point to very influential men linked to scout leader Thomas Hamilton and a peadophile ring.  So, the lesson is ... if the ruling elite are in anyway at fault or involved then a cover up will follow.

[Andy Millne]

To be Honest Fourgee if that view was taken with everything, would Hillsbough have been investigated, the child abuse scandal involving major celebrities, the Iraq Inquiry, Phone Hacking, etc.

 

I understand these issues I have named are all ones that people died as a result in most of them but they also destroyed people lives too.

 

But what people seem to forget is the Miners strike destroyed peoples lives also, People were put of the bread line, had there futures destroyed by being Blacklisted by the Coal Board, and even in some could not live with what they had done like of going back to work during the strike.

 

I believe you're missing a very important difference Adam. The examples you have listed are all events where the victims could not have foreseen the outcome. The closure of the mines was inevitable. Of course, nobody wants to see people lose their jobs but if you *choose* to work in a declining industry that is receiving ever increasing subsidies then you have to expect it will come to an end at some point. 

 

 

As you can see the decline started a lot earlier than the strikes and closures.

[threegee]

I believe you're missing a very important difference Adam. ...

 

And, I think we are all missing something fundamental here.  What Adam and Maggie are echoing is a sense of disconnect from our history.  It's put quite well here:

 

What is at the heart of all these manifestations is anger at the loss of any sense of politics belonging to a habitable place: of being in touch with a local community that has its roots in shared understanding and common attitudes. This is what is at the heart of the "anti-immigration” wave: a fear of losing the collective history and common assumptions that bind people together and give them a sense of continuity.

 

Of course, the EU is the apotheosis of this supranational contempt for historical roots and loyalties. Brussels is hated now in much the same way as Washington is in the US, for its remoteness and disdain for "parochial” concerns.

 

But in truth this goes beyond bureaucratic mechanisms and questions of legal sovereignty. The domestic politics of most Western countries have lost connection with the history of their own people: they have joined a kind of international club that has its own set of vaguely social democratic, more or less Left-liberal assumptions, and its own technical vocabulary that does not resonate with real people in their everyday lives. It is "elitist” in the true sense of the word.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11202668/Todays-remote-and-insulated-politicians-are-responsible-for-the-new-Peoples-Revolt.html

 

There's a general sense of anger at the political elites because instead of getting on with the job we put them in power to do they are carrying out their own social engineering agendas without any regard for our history, culture, or quality of life.  The revolt against being swamped by immigrants isn't being directed at the immigrants themselves - we are a remarkably tolerant people - it's against the people who are using the immigrants to further their own agendas.  When people like Chuka Umunna play the race card, calling anyone who question the wisdom of continuing mass immigration racist, it only serves to anger people more.  We are anything but - or he for one wouldn't be where he is telling us what to think!  It's the same with the EU, a cultural homogenising, and disconnection from our past.  This comes out with many local people as a hark back to the pivotal point in their lives that was the miners strike.

 

Only the terminally old are against any form of change.  But change which is imposed by liberal elites without any form of discussion or involvement by the electorate to suit their own agendas (gay marriage being a blatant recent example), must be questioned by any thinking person.

 

There's a further factor in our country at work here, and it's the London-centric nature of our economy.  I don't think any country of our size suffers such an imbalance between the principal city and the provinces as we have to suffer.  It distorts everything, and impacts our lives in countless ways. The ruling elites should be doing positive things to address this, but they relish their citadel inside the M25.  HS2 is being spun as a mitigation of London's overbearing presence, but in fact all the evidence from overseas projects shows the opposite affect - once again, no real public discussion or consultation, the elites know best and will do all our thinking!

 

What all this amounts to is a build-up to one of those once in several generations people's revolts to bring the ruling classes to heel.  We all know this, but the London-centric liberal elites still don't see the writing on the wall.  Yes, they are picking up clues, and they say they are listening, but we all know that it's pure spin, and that they'll just pick up where they left off after the GE.

[Maggie/915]

My thoughts in the sixties as now are basically that we still need the coal.

The Shotton site and loads of others are testament to that fact.

The effect of closure of the mines on our community has been enormous and devastating.

There was an advert for recruitment purposes that summed up why we would always need coal..

Now just a small part of the profits can give us 'Northumberlandia'

When arguing for cheap coal who took into consideration the welfare bill for mass unemployment?

Ok some people did move and enjoy spending their redundancy money but that still left many others without employment.

[Maggie/915]

The History of the Miners Strike is now down to a Drama.presentation.

Bryony Lavery has written

'Queen Coal'

It features 'Women against Pit Closures', 'The Battle of Orgeave' and the consequences of what happened on life now.

Basically people get together to celebrate the death of Margaret Thatcher which they did in true Yorkshire style by burning an effigy.

Symptoms you are going to need that Spitfire again to get to Sheffield.

The play is on until the 22nd November.

The venue is the small stage with a tunnel effect / mine working entrance.

Seats can be armchairs on the stage if you get there early..

Thought provoking Drama.

[Symptoms]

Yep, I'd need to detour over that grubby coastal village 12 miles SSE of the Toon and give them another burst of 50 caliber before heading down to Sheffield.

 

The place I worked at in London during the Miners' Strike adopted Dinnington Pit (in Yorkshire) and we supported the striking miners families there with funding.  Groups from Women against Pit Closures would come down and give us talks about what was happening.  On two occasions Anne Scargill (Arthur's missus) came with them ... she was a lovely woman.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Symptoms

[Maggie/915]

You need to see the film Pride Symptoms.

The past is coming back to haunt politics.

OK it is now all History but that sense of unfairness , felt at the time , is still very much alive.

The film 'Still the Enemy Within is playing to sell out audiences.

The play about Queen Coal even makes digs about Tony Blair.

Students are there with pen and paper making notes.

All things considered it is very important to document.

Our contributors on this site are and will be an important part of the story.