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You are applying Western democratic values to a system which totally rejects same. But even in the case of Nazi Germany only a small number of dedicated fanatacists were able to subvert a working democracy, so your supposition that our democracy won't allow a take over is flawed. A blind eye is being turned to massive postal voting fraud in Muslim areas because that suits our establishment politicians - our democracy is a lot more frail than we are led to believe! You are also making the mistake of equating Islam with other religions. It's not any sort of religion we know of, it's a totalitarian way of life and death. The numbers game won't hack it for several reasons. Most have already been aired here, but the most significant factor is Cameron's suicidal support for Turkey to join the EU. Other EU countries have seen the danger and won't support him. Because saner voices have prevailed Turkish entry has been delayed, but it's now an inevitability. If you doubt the significance of this when combined with the EU principal of free movement, then listen to what is said in that video! Shariah law already is imposed in our country, and permitting that is one of many bungles by our elites. The fanatics are telling you and Maggie what is going to happen in that video in plain English, what don't you understand about that? Do you think they are insincere? Do you think they exaggerate? Someone please answer the question: where are the moderates in Islamic countries? The only Islamic countries that display an outward-facing moderacy are the ones that are under strict military control. In truth I think that's where we are likely heading too. We've come uncomfortably close to this before, but I think the loony left is going to give the militaristic right the excuse they've never been able to find.

..."and all viewpoints will be equally valid right up to the inevitable day that shariah law is imposed on us all." Could you explain to me, and others, how this is actually going to happen, the imposition of shariah law? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure it would take more than the presence of a few million muslims in the country to make it happen? There would have to be widespread changes in the laws of the land, obviously, which is not something that can be done in an instance. Who needs to pass such a colossal change in the law? And why would they do so? It simply doesn't make sense. Let's consider the figures for a minute: according to the last census, in 2011, almost 60% of the population claimed their religion as Christian; 4.4% were muslims. Around a quarter claimed no religion, so that leaves 20% other religions - fpur times as many as those who are muslims. Now, don't get me wrong as I am happy for anyone who wants to subscribe to a religion (I don't) but I can honestly asy that 60% of the people I know are NOT Christian, and would reckon that more than 25% are not religious. Indeed. the British Social Attitudes survey of 2015 gained a more honest, of you like, response: almost half were happy to admit to having no religion (with 42% Christian and 8% other religions). So, to cut to the chase, we are clearly not yet over-run with Muslims (even if qwe move the figures forward from 2011). So, how does the above equate to us seeing sharia law imposed? Anyone can see, quote clearly, that there is a long, long way to go before the proclaimed culture in which Great Britain becomes an Islamic state, surely? I surmise you wiill probablyt come back at me with the oft-trotted out 'Britain will have a majority muslim population by 20xx' - line; I leave the figure incomplete as it is purely supposition; run a quick web search and you'll find figures stating igt will happen by 2050, while there are otrher sources explaining why, by that date, the muslim population of the UK is unlikely to top 10%. Each is theoretical - and there are many other suggestions - and based purely on current demographic trends, which we all know change with the times naturally. The problem is that we can't see into the future, so thpse of us who think the 'we'll be a muslim nation soon and have sharia law imposed' simply cannot be accused of burying our heads in the sands; that happens ony when you deny something that is clearly evident - and this is not, by any means other than a bunch of potentially flawed statistics that can be interpreted in more than one way, and are done so to suit the needs of those with clear agendas. Of course, the muslim population will grow, but - despite the, again, oft bandied about birthrate statistics, the 'no religion' and christian population will, also; the only way a muslim majority could be achieved so quickly would be for others to stop reproducing. So, here's the thing; I spent a good half hour looking at population projections from various sources - you can do it too, it's fun, and far more informative than the Daily Mail - and can only conclude that the number of sources claiming the UK will become a muslim nation is outnumbered by those who say it won't; why, then, are we going to be subjected to sharia law? As earlier, such claim simply makes no actual, factual sense.

Point 3: "The present influx is about cultural replacement, not about integration and enrichment ... The Islamic leaders have only got one goal: total World domination" So many people rabbit on about this so-called cultural replacement! Give me just ONE example of how any aspect of British Culture has been replaced by the present, or for that matter any, Group of immigrants. Don't bore me with the usual rubbish about burkas and religion. I've already demonstrated to you that they, as well as all other Brits, have every right in accordance with both British law and constitution to choose their own clothing and religion. As for the Islamic leaders goal of "total World domination", it's the same as with the "overbreeding - there simply aren't enough of them! They are 11 in number - the 12th not having appeared yet. They've been waiting for centuries! Furthermore, It is being assumed here that every practitioner of a religion follows their leader's 'advice' regarding the doctrine involved. They do not! Contraception, and even abortion, are practiced among some catholics. What's to say that muslims agree with everthing their leader says?

Point 2: HELLO! WAKE UP! Our ancestors were immigrants! What about the Romans, the Jutes, the Angles and the Saxons? The UK is, and Always has been, a multi cultural society and it has, until recently, been very good at integrating Groups of foreign origin. Did you know for example that the Word racial wasn't to be found in the English vocabulary until the mid 19th Century? I've said it Before and I'll say it again, the English language reflects history better than any other media. These people may not have arrived in any great number, compared with today, but then again, the means of transport were fewer and they didn't get so many people into a boat in those Days! They may also have come with a 'take over' in mind, just as is being suggested of the present wave of immigrants,but they did not succeed. Britain is still Britain. Brits are still British. We didn't become Romans, Angles, Jutes or Saxons. THEY became BRITISH! 3g, you take up the Uganda Asians. This interesting Group of immigrants is - precisely as you Point out - "industrious, Christian and didn't ghettoise" (Lovely construction BTW). Industrious I can personally vouch for, having worked with many. Christian? Yes indeed, they were workers from British colonies carrying all that was a) expected of them and all that was forced upon them by their lords and masters in their baggage. They certainly didn't 'ghettoise'. How could they? They were themselves 'ghettoised' being on the receiving end of the stick, as it were. Ghettos are unavoidable when all that's left to offer are vacant, substandard housing in run down areas. Unfortunately, when so many arrive at the same time, it's very often all that's left, as was the situation at that time, but it's better than living in a war zone, Of course, much depends on how you interpret the Word 'ghetto. It has many meanings including Everything from the oroginal, Italian getto, meaning 'foundry' (because of the first Jewish ghetto established on the site of an old foundry in Venice) through the also Italian borghetto - diminutive of borgo meaning 'borough', to the present day meaning " a part of a city, especially a slum area, (but not necessarily) occupied by a minority Group. As was rightly said, they were not 60 000 in number, only a mere 30 000, but didn't WE do well to make such a su´ccess of this Group! If my memory serves me right then it wasn't all plain sailing. Who remembers the National Front with all their Marches, protests and scaremongering throughout the 1970s? Or Enoch Powell and his River of blood speech? It was first when Britain began to see these people as a resource that it started to go well for Commonwealth immigrants. Before that they were 'ghettoised, or segregated as I prefer to call it. And, guess what, it was the same thing with the so-called 'boat-people' from Vietnam in the 1980s, so what's to say it can't happen again with the present wave of people seeking help in Britain? We Brits are fantastic at rallying around when help is needed, well, most of us are.

I must just take up a couple of Points here: We " are "falling into the trap of equating foreign travel and a steady trickle Exchange of citizenry with mass economic migration into the domain of Another Culture". Mmm .... For many years I retreated occasionally to the house of a friend in central, mainland Spain. The purpose of the visit was, in part, to enjoy the weather but in the main it was to keep my language skills alive. I stopped several years ago, when it no longer was possible to have a conversation in Spanish with the locals. The house, previosly in the centre of a small, spanish village, is now, though not having moved, smack in the middle of a 95% English speaking, urban development. The houses are owned by Brits, mostly retired. None of them speak Spanish. They don't need to. All shops, restaurants and other businesses are owned and run by Brits. Want a new gas boiler fitted, need a haircut, a mechanic, gardener,Carpenter, joiner, glazier, electrician or taxi - the list is endless? Go to the local club (British, of course), look on the notice board and you'll find lots of these and many others advertising their services AT GREATLY REDUCED RATES. I wonder how they manage that? Meanwhile, all spanish shops and serices have gone out of business. I wonder why? And, it's the same thing in the Canary Islands! In most areas you could be forgiven for thinking that you were in central Newcastle or Edinburgh. I've even been able to spend english Money in some shops in Tenerife! I Think that today we can equate the two, that's to say, foreign travel and a steady trickle Exchange of citizenry and mass economic migration into the domain of Another Culture, quite nicely. NB. This is not to say that Spain, as a whole, has been subject to cultural replacement. it's rather a question of a concentration in small pockets giving the effect of something much bigger - A bit like the muslims and the burka. Apologies for all the capital letters. as of today I just can't be bothered to replace them all.

Sounds plausible Paul, but then I'm not a rocket scientist. All I know for sure is that my hard-earned disappears into a Black Hole every Christmas, never again to see the light of day! What does Hawking have to say about that?

I was not going to reply or just say 'whatever' to 3g. Any reply just gives way to another huge amount of information that could be disputed. The use of moral outrage and a fear clause just serve to negate debate. ( in my opinion) 3G maybe has a point but as we all know life is not simple. To keep this thread going highlights the title and in its own way is propaganda . Whichever paper you read or whichever party you decide to vote for should not cause a problem. At times this argument had amounted to 'What part of your wrong do you not understand?' Sadly mercuryg that is the reply I fear you will get to your posting.

Hi Paul, I had problems with the 38 hours knowing that he starts his journey here in Scandinavia at 3 pm 24 Dec, continues in the UK from 12.01 am 25 Dec and doesn't finish until 6 Jan the following year in Spain (where the reindeers mysteriously change into Camels)! What does Hawkings say about that?

Yes Maggie, and all viewpoints will be equally valid right up to the inevitable day that shariah law is imposed on us all. I do not support any form of extremism, and if I was out of the screaming leftie stable I'd have to feign offence at your suggestion and sprinkle a few accusations of ..isms and ...phobias around to prove my credentials as a fully paid up idiot and contestant for a Darwin award! I'm not and I don't, because - unlike your left wing friends - I read more than the commercially failing paper for the brain-dead The Guardian! One tiny bit of extremism I've just happened on today is a statement that "Christianity faces elimination in its birthplace..." - by that well known right-wing extremist the Archbishop of Canterbury! He is of course talking about bloody elimination BY Islam. A pity it's not done to ask questions of the cleric in church, else some might be tempted to ask the supplementary of how long he thinks this elimination will take in our birthplace! Please do say a lot about the petition, as - unlike the highly censored Guardian comments section - there's no fear of ideas or fear of the truth here. And, here's a question that The Guardian won't tax its reader's brains by posing, but perhaps you could attempt to answer: Where are all these moderate Muslims you talk about in Muslim countries? Are they seen crying out for moderation there when people are being stoned to death; having their hands cut off; or are simply being treated like third-class citizens with no human rights? If all the moderates have come here because of the extremists there, then maybe we should be suggesting that they return to enlighten their Muslim brethren. (Explanation only for the humourless, PC, left: The last sentence is a joke, but the rest is certainly no joke!) Here's a very cogent explanation of just WHY we are in the mess we are in. You'll need to get over the fact that it's published in the right-wing extremist Daily Express though! http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/628960/Elites-impact-of-migration

Whilst these are your sincerely held viewpoints 3g, there are other ways and other viewpoints just as valid. There are good people who do not fall into the World domination category.. Be careful you are not being fooled by the articles and papers you read. One could equally say that you are hiding your head in the sand. The right wing extremists are always going to be around, the ones you support could be said to be in disguise. A lot could be said about the petition you ask people to sign.

3g, are you telling me that it's not only within the health service that there are people of the muslim persuasion WORKING - i.e. those doctors and nurses you mentioned earlier? You mean that some are also WORKING as taxi drivers? What happened to all those stay at home, benefits fiddling, rights demanding people of the same persuasion that we read about so often on the Internet? With all these muslims working, who's left to do the job of "outbreeding the local population" and more importantly, when do they find time to do it? You suggest that I may have to agree to wearing a burka simply because I'm told to sit in the back seat of a taxi. I suggest that you may have a genuine, but never the less irrational, fear that the UK is on its way to becoming a Sharia state - that's to say predominantly populated by people of the muslim faith either through "outbreeding the local population" or by converting the local population by whatever means possible - as you appear to suggest in your question. Let's have a look at these two possibilities and see if I can put your mind at rest. First we'll take a look at the "outbreeding of the local population" and why I think it will never happen. According to the 2011 census there are around 63 million residents in the UK. Of these, some 25.3 million are aged between 15 and 44 - the fertile years. However, they are not all female. Roughly half (49%) are men leaving the 51% , 12 903 000, who are female to man the 'production line' as it were. But, wait a minute - not all of these are of the muslim persuasion! Again, according to the 2011 census, muslims account for only 4.8% of the population thereby reducing the 'workforce on the production line' to 619 344. In order to give these poor women a fair chance of succeeding with the outbreeding job, I want us to imagine that no fertile female of any other religious persuasion ever gives birth to another child. Let's also imagine that there are no multiple births from this muslim 'workforce' (there aren't so many in reality that they would significantly change the outcome of this exercise). To make the maths easier we can keep the numbers constant by allowing one teenager to become fertile for every woman reaching the menopause - a bit like it is in real life. Now, given that a fertile female (perpetually pregnant (give or take the odd hour for giving birth and the odd minute or two for conceiving) can produce max. 4 children every 3 years (multiple births not counted), and is fertile for approximately 30 years, how long would it take for these 619 344 women to outbreed the local population? I've never been brilliant at maths but I get it to somewhere around the 80 years mark! And that is in optimal conditions with no competition from any other women and taking no account of reduced egg production forced upon us (men and women) by the biological ravages of time. Not to mention the part played by headaches and brewer's droop, though the latter is not likely to be a problem for the majority of muslim men - avoiding alcohol as they do! Add to that the fact that the UK's total fertility rate has been decreasing steadily since 2008 and was recorded in 2012 as being 1.92 children/woman - somewhat lower than the replacement rate of 2.075 children/woman. RELAX 3g! It's never going to happen. This is not an optimal world. Women of all denominations will continue to lie on their backs thinking of England (when they are not thinking of what to give hubby for his tea) and popping out youngsters at the rate of 1.92 per woman. Some biological clocks will undoubtedly have stopped ticking by the age of 45 while most others will at the very least be going slow but I'm quite sure of one thing - whatever their religious persuasion most women will have drawn the line long before reaching the 40 births in 30 years required to "outbreed the local population". Then there's the question of converting the population to Islam. Again, using the information given by the local population in the 2011 census, I don't think you have any need to be afraid. The majority (59.3%) are still christian bringing with them all that safety in numbers can offer. Another 25.1% have no religion at all while yet another 7.2% haven't bothered to answer the question at all. So, it would appear that a third of the population aren't sufficiently interested in religion to belong to any denomination whatsoever, making conversion to Islam highly unlikely. Ther'e a very good book by Prof.Grace Davies Religion in Britain Since 1945: Believing without Belonging (1994), in which she describes the steady decline of religious affiliation in post-war Britain. Judging by the census figures there doesn't appear to have been any great stampede to fill the void by converting voluntarily to Islam. there simply isn't any interest in it! Neither do I believe that the UK will succumb to conversion under threat of being relegated to the back seat of a taxi. The extremists advocating total Islam are but a minute proportion of a minority group within Islam - the Shia Group comprising roughly 10% of all muslims. They do not represent nor - sit down if your standing for this may surprise you - do they have any support from the majority of Islam's followers. So, what's my answer to the taxi question? Well, I'm batting in the dark here as I'm still not sure I'd be able to recognise as muslim any unknown man soley by his appearance. Of the first Three alternative answers: get in the back, go nowhere, would never happen, there really isn't any that fits the bill. I have no objections to sitting in the back seat, in fact I usually do. If I'd hailed a cab it would be because I needed to get somewhere and I don't really understand Webtrekker's fourth alternative and I certainly wouldn't want a heart attack. However, I do believe it could happen. I've nursed patients detained under section 25 of the 1953 MHA with less delusional ideas! Given no other choices I would probably have to opt for smartly pulling out the Kalashnikov, which self-respecting girls like myself always carry in their handbags, point it at his head and say "Take me to the nearest police station. I wish to report an act of sexual discrimination" and I'd probably add "Buster", like they do in the movies, just to frighten him a bit.

road works ? ooo does that include the dualling of the A1? don't be silly -- does it mean 4 sets of resurfacing on the same stretch of A1in 2 years? does it mean there is an integrated road plan for the WHOLE county -- don't be daft .. but we have a road that goes from nowhere to nowhere that will not used -- damn - silly me - of course it will -- as soon as the county hall is moved and a building that isn't fit for purpose as a county hall is deemed fit for purpose as a school? still puzzled about that one... and it means that the school grounds can be sold off for housing - with ..... ooo a magical transport link right next door and of course we do not need the whole messed about with actual care for the mental health issues or those old folk that get in the way with their totally unnecessary requirements for care NCC -- NO COMMON Sense (ok I stretched that one)

it was a gift that we didnt realise how powerful it was and then adopted it and abused it - sic transit gloria mundi -- oh bugga thats some of that foreign stuff.........

I have no problem with the origins or ethnicity of folk in the UK. (after all we are a 'bastardised race' made up of many and diverse backgrounds) I find that the 'work ethic' is much more prevalent in 'incomers' than in the native species. There are huge problems with second and third generation legal migrants because of many reasons - look at Rochdale etc. and this is also a something in Newcastle, and I know that the 'original' migrants despair at times of the disenfranchised youth. This is not a fault of the post colonialization period but a problem with integration. I was in Deptford many years ago with a friend and at a party - I was somewhat concerned as mate was the spitting image of Bob Markley and I was the only white guy - but he said don't worry (no it wasn't a song!) they don't just hate you - they hate everyone!! I have been welcomed into many Asian and Chinese homes over the years and enjoyed great hospitality, but you have to respect their social mores and traditions. we are seeing nothing more now than the - no blacks, no irish, no dogs signs in B&B places in the 60's but the press have yet again neglected the responsibility of the fourth estate to report and inform and have gone off on one to scaremonger. there is a real and present danger from a very small minority of migrants and illegals - but this has been building up over many years. methinks - and I hope the opportunity has not been lost - that it is time to build a 'green and pleasant land' with the co-operation and input of ALL ethnic origins who have a vested interest in the UK.

Why do the Words 'mountain' and 'molehill' spring to mind when reading that?

I'm not religious either Mercury but I am both curious and interested in other people and their Culture. Couldn't agree more about the need for education in this area but a better Place to start is by talking to muslims. They'll willingly discuss their belief without trying to force it on you - unlike some Christian Groups who regularly knock on the door. I can't say I'm disgusted, more disheartened, by the islamophobia that's pervading our society just now but I am "very much afraid" (to quote a regular contributor on this site). Islamophobia is a much bigger threat today than terrorism.

"Isn't it time we stopped tarring every muslim with the same Dirty brush." My point precisely, Canny Lass. It is time, and it's also time people took the time to become more educated on the subject (and your post above is a perfect place to begin!) I am not religious, yet I accept others right to believe; I find the whole Islamaphobia trait that is rife now to be wholly digusting; furthermore, it is exactly how the radical element want us to think. I feel very, very sorry for the everyday Muslims - here and elsewhere - who are viewed with suspicion for what I see as no reason at all. The actions of a few do not amount to those of all.

Ah! I see you read the Beano too 3g! Are you trying to tell me that I should believe that all all Brits are murderers just because a couple of them have been tried and convicted for that crime? I'd better keep that quiet for the Swedish government. They might send me back!

" It's about a religion that's full of hate, advocates violence and is absolutely intolerant of ALL other religions". You have clearly read a different version of the Koran than I - and a billion muslims the World over - have read (in my case albeit a translation). I can agree that it in some ways it advocates violence but only because it advocates corrporal punishment, just as the UK did until the 1950s, and not because it advocates violence for any other reason. However, I've not found any mention of hate anywhere. As for ALL other religions not being tolerated, I'm afraid that's simply not true. You talk of muslims as though they are all the same. They are not. The islamic religion is devided into two Groups. On the one hand you have the Shia muslims, which make up a grand total of 10 - 15% of the approximately 1½ billion muslims in the World. On the other hand, you have the Sunni muslims, who make up the remaining 85 - 90 %. Both Groups share the same fundamental beliefs and practices. They've managed to agree that there is only one God in their religion and that he shall be called Allah. They've even agreed that Mohammed is his Messenger. Both Groups follow the same 5 basic principles of Islam and they both use the same holy book - the Koran. Here, the likeness stops for when it comes to such things as doctrine and law they haven't quite got their act together and havent yet managed to agree - and probably never will. On the subject of doctrine, the Sunni, on the one hand, have come to rely on the practice of the Prophet Mohammed and his teachings just as Christians the World over have come to rely on God and his teachings. The Shia, on the other hand view their ayatollahs as the embodiment of their God on this Earth. These differences have been around for many centuries and had their origins in the dispute over who should step into the Prophet Mohammed's shoes when he died.The Sunni Group won the 'battle' and the Shia Group have been angry ever since. Furthermore, while the Shia believe in the existence of one God only, Allah, the Sunni, respect the difference between individuals when it comes to choosing their God. On the subject of law, Both Groups are subject to Sharia law. That's logical really as it's based on the Koran and, to a certain extent on the Sunna (a compliment to the Koran). However - and this is a big HOWEVER - both Groups do not interpret Sharia law in the same way! The same Group in different countries can also interpret Sharia in different ways. The same Group in two different Cultures can also interpret Sharia in different ways and even individuals can interpret it in different ways. It is thought that the Shia Group are more fundamental in their interpretation than the Sunni. This is no easy law to apply!! I think you are mistaken 3g when you say that muslim law function parallel to the legal system in Britain. I assume, maybe wrongly - but then I'm sure you will correct me, that you are referring to the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal (1966). This is not a separate legal system but part and parcel of the British legal system dealing with questions of civil law. Most muslims belong to the less extreme Sunni Group and live very peaceably as good Citizens in their host country. Isn't it time we stopped tarring every muslim with the same Dirty brush. Instead of talking generally about muslims when talking of terrorists why not just use the terrorist Word? How many procent of the 10% fundamentalists are we talking about here?

are we missing the basic point of the criminality displayed at the borders and channel ports? immigration has a process and the vast majority of applicants who can prove they meet they criteria are accepted and integrated with no issues. i know someone very well who sits on immigration and asylum tribunals and the vast majority of cases heard have no worth, but its very difficult to deport anyone once they are in. I have no issues with genuine migrants who abide by due legal process but I do have huge concerns about those allegedly refugees who appear to be able to stop at nothing to gain access to the uk - one must ask - why the UK?