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i did mention a march for peace and against daesh - organised by would you belive the Mosques in Newcastle. I see that whilst our fellow brits are suffering due to flooding, other fellow brits are looting the properties and stealing, The army has been deployed to assist with sandbagging etc. several biker gangs have deployed themselves to patrol the streets to deter looters, with the backing of the police (now theres a group that is discriminated against - you can put a sign in a pub 'no bikers' but nothing else can be banned) and on a final note - many folk have travelled to York from the surrounding areas to fill sandbags, some from as far away as Benwell and other parts of Newcastle . they are all muslims and it was organised by the Mosques councils. Maybe we should try speaking to them instead of juts condemning as it seems to me they have a far better insight than the press and if you want to play the numbers game there would appear to be a higher proportion doing good works than among the general population..

The stars are a vote on the whole topic, the green up arrow is not a vote on the post but a vote on member reputation (I think). I'm not sure if you are allowed to vote any one member up more than once, hence that's likely why you believe it has stopped working. All this could be history in the next few weeks as we are now overdue for a major software upgrade. The whole thing became hugely cumbersome over the years so the programming team have spent thousands of hours doing a complete top-down rewrite. The new code will be introduced here as free time is available from servicing paying customers. You might want to start your own poll. I think the permissions are set so that any full member can do this in SOME of the forums. Feel free to experiment as we can always clean up for you. I think that only a topic starter can create a poll, and my guess is that you need to create a poll within 24 hours of starting the new topic. Polls can contain multiple questions, and you decide the range of answers. It's actually quite easy, and you can learn "on the job". The moderators will "pin" any polls they think are of general interest to the top of the forum, so you get more exposure and more people voting.

CL, again, with due respect, you should have read the link...

perhaps propaganda is too strong a word .. disinformation is perhaps more acurate. the press inflate incidents and denigrate their responsibilities by falsehoods ( nice to see the witch-hunt regarding a memo on the Broadwater riots, which at the time was a valid opinion and comment - I note that the same newspaper has not published its redline banner headlines from the same period, nor the many other reports over the years) the question you have to ask is - what do they know that I don't? and how reliable is that and do I trust these people? (the press I mean and I suppose most politicians) this present situation will not go away (although - actually it will as all things do) its how we deal with it now and in the best way. do we grasp the opportunity to alienate a huge swathe of our population which we rely on or do we embrace the opportunity to be inclusive? I would be interested to see what level of security clearance those who are most vociferous on the subject have....................

"yes I am! ... we have to go th(o)rough the pretence that this scheme applies to all religious groups. They keep it to themselves." Well, they are clearly not doing a very good job! You, to name just one, seem to know all about it. If these Groups are so closed how are YOU getting all this inside information? " The answer to that final paragraph is that the net needs to spread as wide as possible; that the Groups that you mention also include significant numbers of less extreme Muslims ... and those Groups are the people that most come into Contact with potential radicals" Firstly I would like to Point out that, I am not only 'mentioning' these Groups I am, in fact, quoting the UK Government's publication 2010 - 2015 Government Policy on Counter Terrorism of which the Prevent Project is part. That said, I again have to ask - how do you know this? What is, for example, a 'significant' number? You clearly know the number in order to be able to place this determining adjective Before it. How do you know that it's this Group of extreme radicals that "most come into Contact with potential radicals"? You clearly know who they are, both the extreme and the potentials among them. Where do you get this information? "so did we have a problem with terrorist extremists bent on bringing down our society" ... "before we had a significant adoption of Islamic beliefs in our country"? I deliberately did not cite the "replacement with a theocracy" bit as I've already demonstrated that this is not about to happen. However, I Think you may have misunderstood my comment regarding the proof of the pudding being in the eating. I was referring to the referrals being investigated and having the results to hand but yes, we have dealt with terrorism in the UK Before. Me knowingly, you are not so Young that that you did not live through the IRA terror attacks related to Northern Ireland, and neither are you so old that senility has caused you to forget them. Of course we have had terrorism - solved by dialogue and negotiation if my memory serves me right. I didn't bother to read the link. It's from The New York Times Magazine, for goodness sake! I'd rather chew off my own right leg! Are you serious! A 'Sunday supplement' ( you may as well read 'tabloid') that's been going steadily downhill for many decades. Just googled it to make sure that statement still holds and yep - it appears to. They introduced a 'funny page' a few years ago and it died the Death after a year. They couldn't even get that right and now I read that they've hired the former editor of Oprah Winfrey's Magazine to try and get it afloat again. Oh dear, oh dear! Doesn't appear to be doing the trick though. My rose-coloured spectacles? The nice thing about spectacles is that you can at least see something through them and they can be removed, if wished. The blind, on the other hand, have (someof them) never had the pleasure of seeing and will remain forever blind. And on that note I leave you to enjoy what remains of the year and wish you all the best for 2016 when we can continue our discussion. Hopefully by then you will have managed to answer some of the outstanding questions, which would make the discussion much more interesting.

That much I'd understood, Malcolm, situated as they are over the thread title, but what do they signify? What is it that's being 'rated' and more important where do they come from? Not that it's important if they are about to disappear.

Gold stars are for the topic.......

...yes I am! But in our massively PC society no one can profile, so we have to go through the pretence that this scheme applies to all religious groups. They keep it to themselves because of misplaced loyalty and peer direction - the same as any closed group does! The answer to that final paragraph is that the net needs to be spread as wide as possible; that the groups that you mention also include significant numbers of less extreme Muslims who know a spade when they see a spade, and those groups are the people that most come into contact with potential radicals - not the general population as you so want to pretend, You mention "proof of pudding": so did we have a problem with terrorist extremists bent on bringing down our society and replacing it with a theocracy before we had a significant adoption of Islamic beliefs in our country? No matter how much the left puffs and gyrates on this one the facts are the facts - take your rose coloured glasses off and look at the Quaran, then ask your Muslim friends exactly how much of it they believe. They will hedge around the subject because the actual answer is all of it; it's not just a religious book it's a manual for life. They don't interpret it for themselves, this is delegated to extremists. This recipe for life includes the physical elimination of all other belief sets that don't conform, and the total eradication of the Jews. This is what you are making lengthy excuses for! OK, so I will now answer my own question as to where the moderate Muslims are: They are mostly here!

Thanks for sharing that bit of news Pilgrim. I'm all for speaking to people. Getting it straight from the horses mouth, so to speak and Maggie, you are so right! The propaganda war is two-sided.

That's a YES from me too mercuryg The propaganda war is at work on both sides.

"You can't be serious!" I'm being perfectly serious! Everything is relative, 3g, everything is relative. If there are more non-Muslims than Muslims in the UK (which there are) then it stands to reason that the greater majority of referrals may also come from non-Muslims, or are you perhaps suggesting that it's only/mostly Muslims who have any information that would help to "identify individuals and groups at risk of radicalisation from all groups, such as Islamist extremists or the far-right" (my underlining) as the Prevent Project sets out to do? If so, why would they keep it to themselves? They don't want to be subjected to crimes of terror or crimes of hate any more than the rest of us! What eveidence is there to bear out your theory - if I'm hearing you correctly - that it is Muslims who, in the majority, ought to know about people at risk of being radicalised to either one extreme or the other? If so were the case, then the security services wouldn't require any further information. The fact that the security services are asking for this information rather blows a hole in the theory supported by some people that ALL and ONLY Muslims are terrorists. The number of referrals is nothing to get your blood pressure up for. At this moment in time neither you nor I know just how many of these 3 288 referrals are genuine. Have all been investigated? Have you considered that many, or indeed all, of them may be based on hate rather than on genuine knowledge? It wouldn't be the first time something like that had occurred. Remember the Black Panther murders in the 70s? Hundreds of potential suspects were interviewed, some in Bedlington,and most of them had been reported by people with a personal grudge, pranksters and the odd idiot who got a kick out of wasting police time and public funds. So, among the 3 288 referrals it may turn out that there is only one, if any, that gives any accurate information and that referral can just as well come from any religious Group. The number of referrals from the Muslim Community isn't either anything to get excited about, given that we have no information regarding the number of referrals received from other religious groups - at least not in this article. Ask yourself why the percentage of referrals from other religious groups hasn't been presented in this article. Do we get to know what percentage of referrals have been received from Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, Quakers, Catholics, Mormons, Sikhs, Bahá'iists, devil-worshippers, agnostics, atheists or any other Group of people connected by their belief? No we don't - so it may just be that the 8.6%referrals from Muslims represents a high referral rate when fairly compared with other referral sources. As I said earlier - everything is relative, 3g, everything is relative. Without knowing how other religious groups have referred potential victims of radicalisation we cannot draw conclusions as to whether or not the Muslim community's rate of referral is lower, higher or equal to that of any other religious group. The proof of the pudding is in the eating so let's wait and see. Oh, one final question, - for today - if as you state "The whole purpose of the scheme is to encourage those mythical moderate Islamists to come forward with what they know about radicalisation" why then does the Prevent Strategy work with "a wide range of sectors, including education, criminal justice, faith, charities, online and Health"? Why not just concentrate directly on the Muslim Community?

YES!

I asked about this when I became a member, Maggie and Brett explained it to me in the same way that Malcolm explained it. It's for agreeing with a post without the need to write. The gold stars I've never been able to fathom out.

"even the security services are struggling for information" I doubt this very much. Because they don't tell us about it doesn't mean they don't know. I'd venture they are well aware of who is what, where and when. You could help, of course, by sending them the videos you show us. The basis of this discussion boils down to: 3G believes we are heading towards being a Muslim country, with their laws and customs imposed upon us (Indeed, it is apparently inevitable); I, and I think others, find that an utterly ridiculous scenario that is not borne out by any actual facts. Yes?

Umm.. that's doe - I've noticed the left can't spell either! I put this down to teachers being more concerned with imparting lefty mumbo jumbo in empty minds than teaching the three Rs! The Sound of Music is actually so non-PC that if you explained it to the likes of Tony's rent-a-mob friends they'd be picketing the cinemas! Fleeing the Nazis is perhaps all they need to know!

You can't be serious! With one breath the apologists for a pure evil doctrine are asking what's wrong with closed communities and non-integration, with the next we are all supposed to have full awareness of who has been radicalised inside those closed communities. Doh! The whole purpose of the scheme is to encourage those mythical moderate Islamists to come forward with what they know about radicalisation, because even the security services are struggling for information. A reasonable figure here might be 98%! This is the sort of leftie double-think that has got us into the mess we are in, and it highlights another truism: the real difference between left and right is that the left simply can't count (actually doesn't want to count)! Just about everything in the world is resource limited, but in left-wing-la-la-land there are no such limitations. That's the reason left wing governments invariably fail in economic mess. That's also the reason why all the clap-trap about the present mass immigration crisis having historical precedence is pure left wing nonsense! We've never experienced anything like this before and - because we have no strategy to deal with it - we've left ourselves wide open to cultural (and some might reasonably claim, physical) annihilation!

Count me in for the multiverse addendum! I can swim to England in less time than it takes for my letters and parcels to arrive! I use the tracking device and I can see that they leave this country the day after posting but seem to disappear for up to weeks Before being delivered. Possibly they are hanging about in this black hole you speak of? The mystery of the belly button fluff is intriguing. I can't say I've noticed it until you mentioned it but something similar occurs between the toes in relation to socks.

Well, that's what our politicos absolutely depend on Malc: that; very short memories; and a new bunch of electors to con (the self-admitted reason Labour loves mass immigration). Now here's an interesting FACT that relates to my where are all these moderate Muslims question. Muslims make 'less than 10%' of referrals to Government's flagship anti-terror scheme You'll note that the The Express has disabled comments on this story. It's probably not one you'll find in the fact-seeking Guardian any time soon, but Guardian readers are challenged to prove me wrong. Wow, loads of responses; even requests to explain words I've never actually used! I'm looking forward to tackling the pertinent stuff.

Tony p yes Aust has given me a lot to be thankfull for and we did not arrive here on a raft I think my message has been misread by some folk i only asked if there was any Muslims outraged by the recent events in Paris

" the petition doesn't say refugees it says immigration. Exactly how these two entirely distinct concepts have come to be so comprehensibly conflated is one of those wonders of bleeding-heart liberal left double-think" . I'm having difficulties understanding the same thing with immigrant and terrorist. Brian, you ask if anyone has Heard of any muslims being outraged at the Deaths in France. I have. Here the muslim Community is one of the largest help groups, dishing out clothes and food to incoming immigrants. Of course, there are those who accuse them of "looking after their own". Simple arithmetic will tell you there can't be that many terrorists. Sure, there will be one or two - to join the throng who've been there for years - but tarring everybody with the same brush is not going to help. There are extremists in all walks of Life: religious fanatics, environmentalists, terrorists and racists - to mention but a few. Pilgrim, you ask how they finance their journey. Some of them have studied and worked hard och earned their Money in much the same way as you and I. The majority, however have had their journey financed by their parents or grandparents. They have sold Everything they possess to be able to give there younger relatives the chance to, first and formost, SURVIVE and secondly to have a better Life. They choose to live in poverty themselves in order to do this and have a very simple philosophy - "I've had my Life, son. It doesn't matter if I die now. You have your Life ahead of you, but there's no future here". Can you honestly say, that in the same situation, you wouldn't do the same thing? Where to start? getting people out of their country and into Another without a passport is big business these Days. It's not hard to find someone if you can pay the asking price.

throwing a dafty in .. estimate of 2% of 'refugees' are 'activists' - ie security risks the EU allowed unhindered travel across its borders for 'nationals of member states' - so what went wrong? look at the profile of those 'refugees' in camps etc... mostly young single men - then compare with real refugees in the first and 2nd wars (we may be looking at the 3rd ww now) - where are the families, the wives, the children? consider the mass 'raids' on channel facilities to gain access - now who co-ordinated those? the main camp in France has a disco/nightclub and the fast food places in the camp do great trade at 3am!!! - now consider yourself in the alleged situation of so many (not all in any way) how did they finance their trip across almost 2 continents and could you do the same ?? and how? - its always a good way to start - take it to a personal level and think it through -- say the UK really wasn't the place you wanted to be and you wanted to get out -- pick a country. look at what you have in the way of money and connections and then think - where would you start and how would you do it.(bearing in mind you have no passport and allegedly no connections where you have decided to go). promoting a vast influx of disparate peoples onto another countries infrastructure is a tremendous way to destabilise the norm. I have nothing against freedom of movement across borders, which are actually artificial (but have a look at the first page of your passport and consider the treatment you get at airports etc!!!) and it makes a freer and more integrated society, but one has to ask why the UK?? are we so much better than our EU neighbours?? and finally --- oh yes the arab states -- well, lowest rating in the world for equality and one would expect nothing more.

Yes, I have; I've personally spoken to Muslim friends in the north of England who are not only horrified, but are living in fear. These are good, honest working people who lead everyday lives and go about their religious doings without bothering others; I may not agree with their beliefs, but I'm unwilling to lump them in with radicals who are intent on killing people. That said, you are absolutely right - the Muslim community needs to stand up and speak out about these people, but then so did those opposed to the Nazi's in WW2. "BTW the petition doesn't say refugees, it says immigration. Exactly how those two entirely distinct concepts have come to be so comprehensively conflated is one of those wonders of bleeding-heart liberal left doublethink!" No, it's not, it's quite logical, and you're actually providing an example: when people mention 'immigrants' now, in this currentand recent climate, the image that pops up is not one of an Eastern European picking turnips outside Boston - which it once was - but of a middle eastern person, say, from Syria, a muslim, of course, for it is they who is 'the problem'. This is entirely because that's what the current news is focusing on - it's nothing to do with 'double think'. "I'm not sure that is entirely true." I see no part of my statement that is in any way untrue; there are terrorists here already, hence the stable door analogy; there are terrorists coming in with the refugees; there are people who need our help - because one man you saw interviewed didn't need our help does not mean other's don't. "The real question is how many refugees the oil-rich Arab countries taking, and it seems the answer to that is zero! " And? Are you suggesting a 'they're not doing it so why should we' approach? That's great, solves everything. It's my ball, I'm taking it home if you don't let me play. Perhaps I'm too soft, or maybe I see things in a different way to that you do, but Johnny Foreigner isn't the biggest problem the UK has right now. After all, without Mr Chahal's wonderrful emporium, where would I get my May San curry sauce?

Has anyone heard or read any accounts of Muslims being outraged re the recent deaths in France perpetrated by Muslim extremists and apparently sanctioned by Allah ......i have heard nothing in this country they are very quiet .........i thought i would never say this but Vive La France

A call to close the stable door after the horse has bolted....Of course there will be jihadists among the refugees; they will use every opportunity they can. There will also be refugees, who need our help.