Levies on energy-wasting appliances

Pete · October 29, 2006

Any pundits with forecasts on next Thursday's results?
Also might WDC agree to take Milibands radioactive waste? The inward investment looks tailor made for Wansbeck but I wonder where it would go!!!!!!!!!!

Malcolm,

I know this is a totaly different subject,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6095680.stm

But is this the end of travel as we know it and who sufferes with this one, yet again the man in the street.

Levies on energy-wasting appliances, does this mean that the less fortunate get stung again, sorry just having gripe.

Malcolm Robinson · October 29, 2006

Malcolm,
I know this is a totaly different subject,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6095680.stm
But is this the end of travel as we know it and who sufferes with this one, yet again the man in the street.
Levies on energy-wasting appliances, does this mean that the less fortunate get stung again, sorry just having gripe.

Of course it does, everytime a problem is met with a blanket tax the very people who should be making changes don't, it is only the less affluent ones who have to consider their positions carefully. Yes the well off pay more but it doesn't really hit home for them. If someone spends 40-50 grand on a new 4x4 what difference will a few extra quid make on road tax to them when all they are concerned about is having the latest fashion trend.

All three major political parties are now scrambling to show off their Green credentials showing how earnest they are on this subject, one thing strikes me, if they are that convinced why don't they just join the Green party?

Sw@lnalla · October 29, 2006

Levies on energy-wasting appliances, does this mean that the less fortunate get stung again, sorry just having gripe.

I live in a council property, a very small one bedroomed bungalow with an ancient heating system. My heating costs are remarkably higher than the 2800 sq. ft. house I occupied in a much colder region in Canada. :blink:

Am I to suffer extra costs on a property I do not own?

threegee · October 30, 2006

...if they are that convinced why don't they just join the Green party?

Maybe because the Green Party is peopled with a bunch of head-in-the-air types who don't have any grip on the underlying science, let alone have any practical and workable ideas. No change there then!

You've only got to point out that clean nuclear has to be part of the solution to witness their hysterical and unscientific response. Yet... they will quote all kinds of pseudo-science to you to justify their luddite prejudices.

In short: Green is the new Loony Left!

Hamburger Pimp · October 30, 2006

If the government wants us all to use less energy heating our homes, then imposing a tax on blankets is a particularly short-sighted measure.

Sort it out, Gordon Browns!

Malcolm Robinson · October 30, 2006

Maybe because the Green Party is peopled with a bunch of head-in-the-air types who don't have any grip on the underlying science, let alone have any practical and workable ideas. No change there then!
You've only got to point out that clean nuclear has to be part of the solution to witness their hysterical and unscientific response. Yet... they will quote all kinds of pseudo-science to you to justify their luddite prejudices.
In short: Green is the new Loony Left!

Threegee,

Who has a grip on the "underlying science" because for everyone (read scientist) who says lifestyles are to blame another says they are not to blame? You know how the system works, leak a few scare stories, get some junior minister to brief on how urgent the Gov are considering draconian action and watch for a public outcry. If there is one drop whatever like a hot potato if not bring in some watered down version so as not to put off too many people when the results start to bite. Quoting anything for long enough will make lots of people belive it, they read it in the press or see it on TV so it must be true!

Using monetary fixes for this type of problem only results in the tax coffers bulging as the rich pay a few extra coppers whilst the poorest sections of society pay huge disproportionate rises for some thing which they need to survive in a contemporary setting. Without massive changes to lifestyles green taxes should be seen as yet another stealth tax!

If nuclear is the answer why is the Gov privatising the industry? If they think it is the answer do they just want to offload the costs or if they do not think it do they just want to offload a problem? Can we expect some adverse UN resolutions if we start building reactors? (And I would be watching Duridge Bay closley!)

Pete · October 30, 2006

Threegee

Is nuclear really the way forward? There have been plenty of scares over the years related to nuclear power stations and illness with children living near these places.

Have the Greens not got a point when it comes to renewable energy? After all there’s plenty of wind and waves on this island.

Malcolm

Have we got a true Green party? Surly if we went 100% green we would have to get rid of all the cars, buses, trains and anything else that spews out carbon including industry. We would have to go back hundreds of years to the days we hunted rabbits and lived off the land (not a bad thought by the way or maybe not we would probably have to pay tax with carrots and rabbit skins).

I know this is a serious issue that has been debated for many years now but nothing seems to happen, no government to date has really done anything about this issue, it’s been talk, talk and more talk with no results.

How serious do other countries take this issue, I have watched three different news channels this morning, two of these channels played heavily on this issue the third didn’t even mention this issue at all needless to say it was an American news channel, if there not interested can GB do it alone?

Dave · October 30, 2006

If you think about it, i remember when the green house effect was first discovered as a way in which temperature changes happen on earth.Then super computers were created and they were used to predict longer range weather forecasts. Then when these computers became more powerful they plugged in the data they had concerning this new green house effect theory, and hey presto the end of the human race! It might have been preventable but it would have needed the whole world to agree that something had to be done....everyone else agreed it did.... The great satan george walter bush thought it didn't. RIP

Pete · October 30, 2006

If you think about it, i remember when the green house effect was first discovered as a way in which temperature changes happen on earth.Then super computers were created and they were used to predict longer range weather forecasts. Then when these computers became more powerful they plugged in the data they had concerning this new green house effect theory, and hey presto the end of the human race! It might have been preventable but it would have needed the whole world to agree that something had to be done....everyone else agreed it did.... The great satan george walter bush thought it didn't. RIP

Thats one of the points I was trying to make Dave, America is one of the biggest nations in the world and they don't seem to be interested.

Dave · October 30, 2006

Thats one of the points I was trying to make Dave, America is one of the biggest nations in the world and they don't seem to be interested.

Thats because america is a cultural vacuum based on fantasy and doublethink, it might have been different but unfortunatley they voted a chimp in charge whose about a smart as an egg timer. I have a feeling china is also a problem but i have the feeling if they wanted too they have more control over their population and have little qualms about imposing anything they want - unlike most western nations. Its up to the likes of the UK to persued the developing countries that green is the only way forward and climate change is caused by human carbon creation. Its not helpful to have the most powerful country acting like everything is going to be ok and not even considering action as it may slow growth! Maybe a few more hurricanes will help change minds - as long as they hit white areas of course. otherwise the're just acts of god!

Malcolm Robinson · October 30, 2006

Malcolm

Have we got a true Green party? Surly if we went 100% green we would have to get rid of all the cars, buses, trains and anything else that spews out carbon including industry. We would have to go back hundreds of years to the days we hunted rabbits and lived off the land (not a bad thought by the way or maybe not we would probably have to pay tax with carrots and rabbit skins).

Pete,

I do not really know the answer to that one but if we look at things sensibley, Nature is a carbon user so that must mean there is an equalibrium we can arrive at. The problem seems to be the way we have over developed "dirty" industry so we produce more than Nature can accomodate. With only the bottom line to think about business has ignored this effect in the persuit of profits, and to give consumers what they demand, lets not forget! I have no doubt business can clean up its act as long as consumers will take the hit for the extra costings. Some look as if they are already doing that but China and India have a lot of catching up to do before they take on board this type of business model, can we really blame them and do we have the right to pontificate?

I know this is a serious issue that has been debated for many years now but nothing seems to happen, no government to date has really done anything about this issue, it’s been talk, talk and more talk with no results.

That is why it is so important to hold politicians to account!

How serious do other countries take this issue, I have watched three different news channels this morning, two of these channels played heavily on this issue the third didn’t even mention this issue at all needless to say it was an American news channel, if there not interested can GB do it alone?

Of course we cannot, GB's pollution is a drop in the ocean compared to others ( I wonder if Maggie was a closet Green and that was why she decimated manufacturing in the UK!) but we do seem to be pretty good at inventing solutions. As a mature economy he have a requirement to try and redress the polution we have caused in its development even if it is just to show others it can be done and show developing economies how it can be done!

Pete · October 30, 2006

Malcolm
Have we got a true Green party? Surly if we went 100% green we would have to get rid of all the cars, buses, trains and anything else that spews out carbon including industry. We would have to go back hundreds of years to the days we hunted rabbits and lived off the land (not a bad thought by the way or maybe not we would probably have to pay tax with carrots and rabbit skins).
Pete,
I do not really know the answer to that one but if we look at things sensibley, Nature is a carbon user so that must mean there is an equalibrium we can arrive at. The problem seems to be the way we have over developed "dirty" industry so we produce more than Nature can accomodate. With only the bottom line to think about business has ignored this effect in the persuit of profits, and to give consumers what they demand, lets not forget! I have no doubt business can clean up its act as long as consumers will take the hit for the extra costings. Some look as if they are already doing that but China and India have a lot of catching up to do before they take on board this type of business model, can we really blame them and do we have the right to pontificate?
I know this is a serious issue that has been debated for many years now but nothing seems to happen, no government to date has really done anything about this issue, it’s been talk, talk and more talk with no results.
That is why it is so important to hold politicians to account!
How serious do other countries take this issue, I have watched three different news channels this morning, two of these channels played heavily on this issue the third didn’t even mention this issue at all needless to say it was an American news channel, if there not interested can GB do it alone?
Of course we cannot, GB's pollution is a drop in the ocean compared to others ( I wonder if Maggie was a closet Green and that was why she decimated manufacturing in the UK!) but we do seem to be pretty good at inventing solutions. As a mature economy he have a requirement to try and redress the polution we have caused in its development even if it is just to show others it can be done and show developing economies how it can be done!

Malcolm

I agree with what you are saying especially about holding politicians to account but the wheels of power move to slowly for the solution to be put in place, They will still be debating this issue next year.

My biggest fear is for my Grandchildren and what future they will have, could they be looking at a scorched Earth?

Malcolm Robinson · October 30, 2006

I agree with what you are saying especially about holding politicians to account but the wheels of power move to slowly for the solution to be put in place, They will still be debating this issue next year.

Pete,

I know all about those dammed wheels of power moving too slowly! And yes the ploliticians will be talking endlessly and most of the time aimlessly, why, because that seems to be their job these days! They will say they are held to account every 4 years or so but that is Bxxxxxxs! Let us not forget they are only there to REPRESENT OUR views, that being the true sense of our democratic model. Somehow that has been lost and we now find we are being told what to do and how to behave by people who you wouldn't let your dog take for a walk! Next time you see a politician on TV sidetrack or refuse to answer a specific question ask why they are on the show if they are not going to give straight answers! If I was the interviewer I would refuse them anymore airtime!

My biggest fear is for my Grandchildren and what future they will have, could they be looking at a scorched Earth?

That would be my concern as well! Being of a certain age, it should be encumbent on my generation to leave something better than we found for future generations, as it is my generation who are the power brokers at present!

Pete · October 30, 2006

I agree with what you are saying especially about holding politicians to account but the wheels of power move to slowly for the solution to be put in place, They will still be debating this issue next year.
Pete,
I know all about those dammed wheels of power moving too slowly! And yes the ploliticians will be talking endlessly and most of the time aimlessly, why, because that seems to be their job these days! They will say they are held to account every 4 years or so but that is Bxxxxxxs! Let us not forget they are only there to REPRESENT OUR views, that being the true sense of our democratic model. Somehow that has been lost and we now find we are being told what to do and how to behave by people who you wouldn't let your dog take for a walk! Next time you see a politician on TV sidetrack or refuse to answer a specific question ask why they are on the show if they are not going to give straight answers! If I was the interviewer I would refuse them anymore airtime!
My biggest fear is for my Grandchildren and what future they will have, could they be looking at a scorched Earth?
That would be my concern as well! Being of a certain age, it should be encumbent on my generation to leave something better than we found for future generations, as it is my generation who are the power brokers at present!

Malcolm

Your 100% spot on there (held to account every 4 years or so but that is Bxxxxxxs) the ballot box does not always hold the answer to the problem, it usally means more of the same but a different style.

Politians representing my views, well your correct again I have never meet one.

Politians sjdetracking a question the late HW was master at that.

One things for sure you can usally get a response from your local MP the day before a General election it's surprising how far they can bend over backwards to please. I have got a true story on that one but I'll refrain from using it in this post.

Sw@lnalla · October 31, 2006

Have the Greens not got a point when it comes to renewable energy? After all there’s plenty of wind and waves on this island.

In most UK power stations there are four generators rated at between 500-660mw, how many wind generators do you think it will take to replace even one of these machines? There's a lot of green wind out there but they haven't done the sums. Nuclear and/or fossil fuel will be necessary for many years to come.

http://www.bwea.com/edu/calcs.html

Pete · October 31, 2006

In most UK power stations there are , how many wind generators do you think it will take to replace even one of these machines? There's a lot of green wind out there but they haven't done the sums. Nuclear and/or fossil fuel will be necessary for many years to come.
http://www.bwea.com/edu/calcs.html

To be honest Swalnalla I don't know how many wind generators it would take to replace one of the four generators rated at between 500-660mw, This is a subject that I have no knowledge in.

I am not arguing for the Green party or any other party, just interested to know what the answer or out come to this problem is.

I do agree that Nuclear/ fossil fuel will be used for many years to come, as I stated in an earlier post this subject will be debated for years with the powers to be making no real decissions except to put more tax on those that can't afford to pay it.

An interesting piece of imformation from your link:

The average wind farm in the UK will pay back the energy used in its manufacture within three to five months, and over its lifetime a wind turbine will produce over 30 times more energy than was used in its manufacture.

This compares favourably with coal or nuclear power stations, which deliver only a third of the total energy used in construction and fuel supply. So, if fuel is included in the calculation, fossil fuel or nuclear power stations never achieve an energy pay back. Wind energy not only achieves pay back within a few months of installation but does so from a fuel that is free and inexhaustible.

I know this is only a couple of paragraphs and not the whole story.

Malcolm Robinson · October 31, 2006

I am a bit lost when I hear the Gov talk about adopting "green" power. Isn't this the same jokers who privatised (albeit in different coloured ties!) the nation's power supplies? How can any gov dictate to a private business how it should develope? Yes they might be able to give grants and sweetners but to dictate a policy? Same goes for the transport and water industries. They are either nationally owned and the elected Gov can then say what goes or they are privatley owned in which case a small board of directors have the final say. Or are we talking about the Gov starting it's own brand new "green"power companies in which case maybe the people who bought out the old ones might have something to say?

I may have missed something, like does the Gov retain a 51% shareholding in whatever it privatised and therefore has a contolling interest in which case anyone who bought into the whole privatising scheme has been misled!

Listening to the latest offering off our elected "betters" the proposed scheme at present is to tax inefficient users and the money goes to.........well err.... back to the people they are taking it off in one guise or another. Don't these people talk amongst themselves?

I would be all for wind and wave power because you must factor in the detrimental effects and their costings any other way of power production causes. And to all those people who do not want a wind turbine in close proximity to them or think they spoil a view maybe they should consider taking Miliband's radiactive waste!

Sw@lnalla · October 31, 2006

To be honest Swalnalla I don't know how many wind generators it would take to replace one of the four generators rated at between 500-660mw, This is a subject that I have no knowledge in.
I am not arguing for the Green party or any other party, just interested to know what the answer or out come to this problem is.

I'm also sitting on the fence Pete, I worked for many years on many types of generators, here's another view.

Pencil_Neck · October 31, 2006

I live in a council property, a very small one bedroomed bungalow with an ancient heating system. My heating costs are remarkably higher than the 2800 sq. ft. house I occupied in a much colder region in Canada.
Am I to suffer extra costs on a property I do not own?

That's life boss

Sw@lnalla · October 31, 2006

That's life boss

Very intelligent, as always :unsure:

Malcolm Robinson · November 1, 2006

I'm also sitting on the fence Pete, I worked for many years on many types of generators, here's another view.

Looked at the link but couldn't that expedential forecast for gas generating be substantially reduced by renewables? If there are a new barrage of "green" taxes etc they would have to go into the costings of all forms of power generation making renewables a much safer bet (financially). It has to be a mix of renewables as the only one which is always available is tidal. Saying that if there is no wind it is usually a sunny day (solar) and if it is inclement weather there would normally be a wind which would seem to suggest some type of natural synergy?

Pete · November 1, 2006

I'm also sitting on the fence Pete, I worked for many years on many types of generators, here's another view.

Swalnalla

The biggest problem for me, with all these argumnets that are for and against, is how much money are the big boys puting in to get the so called facts slanted in there favour.

I could be totally wrong about the stament that I have just made but one does wonder.

(This is not a reference to your link)

Malcolm

I think this link goes along side your argument.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/climate/adaptation/water.shtml

Malcolm Robinson · November 5, 2006

As I said for every expert who says climate change it our fault there are others who say.......

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...MC-new_05112006

Sw@lnalla · November 6, 2006

As I said for every expert who says climate change it our fault there are others who say.......
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...MC-new_05112006

You may wish to add David Bellamy to your list.

This looks interesting. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3650208.stm

Pete · November 6, 2006

You may wish to add David Bellamy to your list.
This looks interesting. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3650208.stm

Just read your two links Swalnalla, left me 100% undecided, still sitting on the fence. Somebody must have the answer.

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