Dave's Big Speech On Europe

[threegee]

Billed as the biggest speech of his career.

It was to be the 22nd but that would have upset the German-French axis as they were celebrating the anniversary of some political gravy train or other leaving the station, and the timing of what he is about to spring would have been unfortunate. Then it was moved to... but... well, you get the picture. So it's this Friday for sure - probably, or unless some senior civil servant has overlooked that it's Fiona's hair night and he's needed to apply the Loreal.

This is the announcement that is going to put him back in No 10 by squaring the circle of UKIP leaning Tories considering defection, and the pro-European LD's in government. Of course Millipede is going to disagree with anything he says - even if he reads it straight out of the Labour manifesto.

A tiny foretaste of this from his interview on the Today program on Monday:

...the British public feel increasingly fed up that they've been left out of this debate - you know - they've been promised by both - frankly - government and oppositions opportunities to.. to.. to.. vote in referenda or whatever, and then those opportunities have been taken away from them, and I think the public are increasingly fed up with that... ...and we need to make sure that the British public are properly and fully consulted.

So so true Dave - I've been p'd off with politicos like you breaking your election promises on this almost ever since I was conned into voting for the Common Market. So... we are going to get the long overdue referendum then? I wouldn't count on it, and bet he will promise one after the next election, just like all parties have - before they realised they were bound to lose the vote! It will be IF this then IF that too. Plus, of course, IF I'm sure it will go my way. Do I trust any further undertakings you give on this matter? N.O.! That's why I will be voting UKIP.

What can he possibly say that will prevent a major bust-up over Europe? We await with bated breath.

[Malcolm Robinson]

I think he is probably fighting for his political career..........

If its not Boris or Gideon its now Grove and like Blair/Brown he can't sack them.

Not sure I want UKIP to have the balance of power?

[threegee]

UKIP want what the great majority want: free trade with Europe and the right to run our own affairs. If the EU won't play ball they have a lot more to lose than we do. We then have the freedom to negotiate free trade deals with who we want and block those we don't want - not to mention the £8 billion a year we save! We'd get a better deal with UKIP at the helm than any other party.

Balance of power wise, well it probably won't be so good. UKIP rules out a deal with Cameron, and the LDs are on the road to oblivion, so the only logical coalition would be with Labour - however daft that sounds! Who knows what Milliband would agree to to get power? He wouldn't be able to pussyfoot on a referendum, but he wouldn't want an in/out one, just a renegotiate one. But UKIPs trump card is that they are prepared to walk away if absolutely necessary and that would likely be stymied.

We are due for a major shakeup of politics and major defections from the Tories might just produce a few from Labour too. It's not out of the question that UKIP could become the majority party in some circumstances, though at the next election it's a slim chance without total meltdown in the EU.

So yes, it's going to be very messy, but the only sane way to support our country now is to support UKIP. Cameron is going to do all he can to marginalise UKIP, and it's in the other parties interests to passively support this. The Tory party is paralysed between the need to get rid of him and bring many UKIP supporters back on board, and the old-school Europhiles. This is going to be a very interesting 2.5 years.

[Malcolm Robinson]

I think we are seeing the end of party politics.......... quicker the better! We might start to elect based on merit and integrity rather than anything else!

The fact that they have to bring in people from outside when they form a government just shows how inept most are.

We hold referenda on very regular occasions and the cast votes are huge......... Dancing on ice, x factor, sing for your suppa etc. whatever the current flavour is. Somehow we favour passing interest and distraction rather than stuff which really makes a difference?

UKIP is still a one trick pony and like a pit pony you can't expect them to win the Grand National.

They might however get in the way of the other runners and that's probably the best that they can hope for.

[threegee]

If only you were right on the end of party politics! How do you get it over to the great British public that they are regularly screwing themselves over by supporting the same old party hacks?!

We'll agree to differ on the one-trick-pony for now. UKIP actually have some pretty sensible policies now, and if you regard them as a point around which a lot of level-headed people are now gravitating they are no longer a proposition that is too hard to swallow. Gone is the cop-out that the EU is the most important issue (though it most certainly is!) and all the rest are secondary and will follow on. And, no more nutters than in other parties really - though the establishment, and vested interest, is about to do its very best to counter that view.

[keith lockey]

For the first time in my life I can honestly say I am TOTALLY disillusioned with our political choices. I seriously cannot see the point in voting anymore, it just seems futile, especially with what we've got to choose from.

The above is what I said sometime ago and, alas, I think a lot of people feel the same way. In the last few years I have seen a lot of people voting BNP and now UKIP. Gordo effectively destroyed the Labour Party and left them leaderless and the Tories are like a same old record with the needle stuck. It's totally disheartening. Pericles must be turning in his tumulus.

[Symptoms]

Perhaps the following will add to the debate here; it was written by Simon Sweeney, a Lecturer in international political economy, University of York.

".... What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future."

Yep, I know he hasn't mentioned those Johnny Foreigner stories so loved by the hateful Daily Mail - you know, those ones about the 'dusky hordes' from the East, the rules about 'straight' cucumbers, and how all the council houses have been taken over by EU benefit scroungers.

[threegee]

Perhaps the following will add to the debate here; it was written by Simon Sweeney, a Lecturer in international political economy, University of York.

"In 2006 I was appointed as one of 15 UK Socrates Erasmus Bologna Experts sponsored by the European Commission" So, already on the Euro gravy train! Anyway, it's a bit more detailed than the usual we must be at the heart of Europe BS, so deserves a reply.

".... What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; lean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

A fail in the very first sentence. EEC is what we joined, and the great British public was persuaded was the sunlit uplands (including a naive me) - EU is what was later forced on us by politicos. You can't mix and match here; which so-called advantages belong to one and which were a product of the other? It's the old Monty Python what did the Romans ever do for us joke: big long list of things no one can argue with, but misses the essential point that the People's Front for the Liberation... are seeking their freedom from oppression. There's no equation there! Except - in this case - just about every member of that long list is in itself illusory. Pick a couple at random and we will dissect them.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future."

Here we go again! The arguments of tired old men who learned the wrong lessons from history. None of our postwar peace had a jot to do with the EU. Read NATO; read universal education; read modern communications; read universal foreign travel; read a less deferential-to-authority media, etc. - my list is long too! OMG "neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses"! Well we know about the latter - buckets of that in the EU. There's nothing very "neoliberal economic" or global" about setting up trade barriers outside your borders instead of inside them - a my cartel is bigger than your cartel, so we'll do things our way approach to trading. No way is this the free trade principal that brought prosperity to large swathes of the World, and brought civilisation and some sort of order to the rest.

And.. attention Mr Sweeney... the EU was formed in 1993 - the Maastricht Treaty, remember? Not 60 years ago; and those evil warmongering dictatorships that instantly became peaceful good Europeans must have been 13 years ahead of their time too! And tell me about Kosovo, do? I don't remember too many wars between EFTA countries either - they just got on and promoted mutual free trade without all the political BS. So maybe it's just the contact and mutual self-respect brought about by free trade that's the key here, and peace has little or nothing to do with big politics?

"We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future." Ummm... yes, bet that translates well into Bulgarian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, English, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Irish, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Maltese, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Slovak, Slovene, Spanish and Swedish (note cut'n'paste), puts plenty of gravy on the table in Brussels, and accounts for just a few more trees. As a Brit I believe in doing the right thing, not in being told what I should and "must" think. I believe in getting on with the business of putting food on the table, of trading fairly, and generating a surplus which can be used to help others. I believe in small government with as few layers, and as little impediment to wealth generation, as possible. I believe in retaining the discretion to use that surplus wisely myself, and not have it hijacked, even stolen, by huge bureaucracies that contribute nothing to wealth production, and consume obscene amounts of resource in their arrogant assumption that they know better than the people they pretend to serve.

On my figures the British contribution to the EU is about £8bn - so this £7bn is a lot closer to the truth than the £4bn offered by most supporters of the EU. It's a fallacy to compare that figure with GNP as it's a direct loss to the UK not a recirculating government spend, not to mention that £8,000,000,000 a year is one hell of a lot of money! Do we get value for it? Most definitely we don't! If it's to be regarded as a membership fee for a club of equals, then it's a peculiar kind of membership of a rather rum club - paid by a very few and not at all by other members.

Yep, I know he hasn't mentioned those Johnny Foreigner stories so loved by the hateful Daily Mail - you know, those ones about the 'dusky hordes' from the East, the rules about 'straight' cucumbers, and how all the council houses have been taken over by EU benefit scroungers.

I agree that these kinds of stories are largely crap, and don't contribute to the real debate. But they are a metaphor for the truth that can easily be run by most voters. They are no more fanciful than the distortions and embellishment which comes from the mouths of supporters of a federal Europe, and largely go unchallenged.

At this point I note that you haven't provided me with a entry to many of the real points at issue, but it's a brave attempt for which I thank you! I'd like to get on to matters like European defence, where the fattest member of the club sits back and pretends that what we do is in our own interest - so they need contribute nothing, and put no boots on the ground themselves. But, now we are told that all wrongs will be righted, all debts will be squared, when a new federal kind of Europe comes into being. Sunny Uplands Redux, or an increasingly Orwellian nightmare?

[keith lockey]

"In 2006 I was appointed as one of 15 UK Socrates Erasmus Bologna Experts sponsored by the European Commission" So, already on the Euro gravy train! Anyway, it's a bit more detailed than the usual we must be at the heart of Europe BS, so deserves a reply.

A fail in the very first sentence. EEC is what we joined, and the great British public was persuaded was the sunlit uplands (including a naive me) - EU is what was later forced on us by politicos. You can't mix and match here; which so-called advantages belong to one and which were a product of the other? It's the old Monty Python what did the Romans ever do for us joke: big long list of things no one can argue with, but misses the essential point that the People's Front for the Liberation... are seeking their freedom from oppression. There's no equation there! Except - in this case - just about every member of that long list is in itself illusory. Pick a couple at random and we will dissect them.

Here we go again! The arguments of tired old men who learned the wrong lessons from history. None of our postwar peace had a jot to do with the EU. Read NATO; read universal education; read modern communications; read universal foreign travel; read a less deferential-to-authority media, etc. - my list is long too! OMG "neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses"! Well we know about the latter - buckets of that in the EU. There's nothing very "neoliberal economic" or global" about setting up trade barriers outside your borders instead of inside them - a my cartel is bigger than your cartel, so we'll do things our way approach to trading. No way is this the free trade principal that brought prosperity to large swathes of the World, and brought civilisation and some sort of order to the rest.

And.. attention Mr Sweeney... the EU was formed in 1993 - the Maastricht Treaty, remember? Not 60 years ago; and those evil warmongering dictatorships that instantly became peaceful good Europeans must have been 13 years ahead of their time too! And tell me about Kosovo, do? I don't remember too many wars between EFTA countries either - they just got on and promoted mutual free trade without all the political BS. So maybe it's just the contact and mutual self-respect brought about by free trade that's the key here, and peace has little or nothing to do with big politics?

"We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multipolar global future." Ummm... yes, bet that translates well into Bulgarian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, English, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Irish, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Maltese, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Slovak, Slovene, Spanish and Swedish (note cut'n'paste), puts plenty of gravy on the table in Brussels, and accounts for just a few more trees. As a Brit I believe in doing the right thing, not in being told what I should and "must" think. I believe in getting on with the business of putting food on the table, of trading fairly, and generating a surplus which can be used to help others. I believe in small government with as few layers, and as little impediment to wealth generation, as possible. I believe in retaining the discretion to use that surplus wisely myself, and not have it hijacked, even stolen, by huge bureaucracies that contribute nothing to wealth production, and consume obscene amounts of resource in their arrogant assumption that they know better than the people they pretend to serve.

On my figures the British contribution to the EU is about £8bn - so this £7bn is a lot closer to the truth than the £4bn offered by most supporters of the EU. It's a fallacy to compare that figure with GNP as it's a direct loss to the UK not a recirculating government spend, not to mention that £8,000,000,000 a year is one hell of a lot of money! Do we get value for it? Most definitely we don't! If it's to be regarded as a membership fee for a club of equals, then it's a peculiar kind of membership of a rather rum club - paid by a very few and not at all by other members.

I agree that these kinds of stories are largely crap, and don't contribute to the real debate. But they are a metaphor for the truth that can easily be run by most voters. They are no more fanciful than the distortions and embellishment which comes from the mouths of supporters of a federal Europe, and largely go unchallenged.

At this point I note that you haven't provided me with a entry to many of the real points at issue, but it's a brave attempt for which I thank you! I'd like to get on to matters like European defence, where the fattest member of the club sits back and pretends that what we do is in our own interest - so they need contribute nothing, and put no boots on the ground themselves. But, now we are told that all wrongs will be righted, all debts will be squared, when a new federal kind of Europe comes into being. Sunny Uplands Redux, or an increasingly Orwellian nightmare?

A new federal kind of Europe - you have lowered the bar there, threegee, try NWO. No shi**y paranoia. It actually makes sense. One world , one government. It's which monopoly board piece can get the real estate first. And if they can do it using political means - ie the laws they have set themselves - european union , Maastricht, then all the more hunky dory. "Be prepared for bad news" Cameron says over the Mali/Algeria crises. When in doubt go to war - er Falklands anybody. Pawns on a chess board, geo-politics with no timescale except oportunitism. As Hemmingway said about life - "it's just a dirty trick." Voting is just a joke now. Democracy is akin to Utopia, Shangri La, Cloud Cuckoo Land. I'll shut up now before I step over the line.

Edited January 18, 2013 by keith lockey

[Malcolm Robinson]

[Malcolm Robinson]

Simon Sweeny whose clients include the EU and the Bologna Experts Committee. Funny how partisan that list seems now Sym.

I am with GGG on this one and was even a supporter at one point. I thought even just the fact that our generation hasn't been to Europe waging wholesale war, was by itself enough of a reason to support not just the EU but an enlarging EU. It's not!

Keef2, again I see the argument for a Federal Europe and I was never afraid of it but what has coloured my perspective is the people running the show. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

In anticipated response to Dave's now cancelled big EU speech where he is widely forecast to ask for major treaty changes Herman van Rompuy said "We do not need anything like as much Treaty change as people think. Too much change would open the floodgates”. Yeah democracy is a bad thing in the EU!

[Malcolm Robinson]

Its not just us that are sick of these people..........

http://dotsub.com/view/01ad2718-073c-474a-ac40-c7a72e199d55

[Symptoms]

Remember boys & girls I began my contribution with: "Perhaps the following will add to the debate here;"

... and it did. Just because the fella got some funding from the EU and others 'over there' it doesn't disqualify him from commenting or there being no merit in what he's saying. Just as I wouldn't attempt to gag or rubbish what the knuckle-dragging Little Englander apologists have to contribute to the debate.

Look, the real agenda for the urban white middle- class is fear. Fear of a black neighbour, fear for their kids being taught alongside black kids, fear of having to share a pavement with a black person, and so on. Of course, they can't be open and say this so it's codified: academy schools (selection); boundary changes; anti-EU hysteria vomited out by the poor, dumb white 'underclass' who act as proxies for the UWM-C. After all, it would be impolite for the UWM-C to espouse such views.

Yep, I suspect that Bedders is still 'terribly white' so the fear in the village is only imagined but is being manipulated by a small group of flag-waving crazzies (zoom out and this is true for the whole of the UK).

[Malcolm Robinson]

Codicil accepted Sym as always,

Thing is I had so much belief I went and lived and worked in continental Europe for 10 years. I still have many friends across there and guess what almost all see the UK as a country wanting to be separatist and just about all of them wish we were! There seems less education about debased national stereotypes across there than anything appearing the in Daily Mail!

We were turned down for jobs because we were English, and that was off official Eurocrats. I had to go and throw the appropriate passages out of the Maastricht Treaty across the desk at them!

In the end the Hoi Polloi are just the same as us and it took some time but we were eventually accepted by our neighbours and community and became good friends with them.

It's not the ideal I disagree with it's the people running it because they are doing it for their benefit not ours!

[Symptoms]

Mal wrote: "... it's the people running it because they are doing it for their benefit not ours!"

Of course that's true but it's true of 90% of those holding or running for public office however big or small. I've always thought that just about everybody is either corrupt or corruptible ... in other words we've all got a price. Yep, there will be the odd morally upright individual whose motive is true service* but the rest are just shysters, con artist or thieves, but usually all three.

*obviously I'm a member of this august group.

[Malcolm Robinson]

Mal wrote: "... it's the people running it because they are doing it for their benefit not ours!"

Of course that's true but it's true of 90% of those holding or running for public office however big or small. I've always thought that just about everybody is either corrupt or corruptible ... in other words we've all got a price. Yep, there will be the odd morally upright individual whose motive is true service* but the rest are just shysters, con artist or thieves, but usually all three.

*obviously I'm a member of this august group.

Is that what they call a summer camp?

[Symptoms]

I had to think about that one Mal. What threw me was that Summer thing as I spelt august without a capital letter:

august - full of solemn splendour and dignity

August - in the Gregorian calendar, the eighth month of the year, lasting 31 days and for us therefore in the Summer.

Or where you referring to "camp"?

[Malcolm Robinson]

No it was the August I was referring to...........

[Maggie/915]

Lots of opinions but how about reading The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist

by Robert Tressell

Maybe we all live in a kind of Mugsville

[keith lockey]

Lots of opinions but how about reading The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist

by Robert Tressell

Maybe we all live in a kind of Mugsville

Or, indeed, Animal Farm & 1984.

[Malcolm Robinson]

Not sure where this info came from..................

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/mixed-messages-poll-shows-increased-support-for-europe-in-uk-a-878372.html

[threegee]

Not sure where this info came from..................

http://www.spiegel.d...k-a-878372.html

From the fevered brains of eurocrats who don't live in the real world, and just don't get it?

Maybe Rumpy Pumpy doesn't fund this one: http://www.euronews....out-of-eu-deal/

Dave needs to be careful; pushing on the exit door open and showing how blue the sky is outside, he could just get injured in the rush! Any bets on whether a new Catalonia would want to join Dave's EU or the Federal one?

Well, the speech has had the desire affect, it's brought Tory rebels back on-board, marginalised the Cleggies (as if this were needed), and totally wrong-footed Red Ed - once again! Filled with those inevitable IFs of course, but if Dave can deliver on most of his five woolly aims, I might even buy a Dave-style EU. Meanwhile I will still be voting UKIP - just to keep the politicos minds focussed on the only long-term thing that really matters.

[threegee]

Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire MEP's take on Dave's speech here: http://www.publicser...uk-is-snake-oil

For those who can't be bothered to read it I'll summarise: He's got a bad track record of keeping his promises, and can't be trusted. He's also the very last person we need to be renegotiating anything with the EU - with the possible exception of Tony Blair who cost us as an arm and a leg the last time round!

If he was in earnest, he would have invoked Article 50 on the Functioning of the Treaty of European Union - give notice to leave and start negotiating from there. Incidentally, even under that article it would not be until 2016 that we could leave.

[Malcolm Robinson]

Dave needs to be careful; pushing on the exit door open and showing how blue the sky is outside, he could just get injured in the rush! Any bets on whether a new Catalonia would want to join Dave's EU or the Federal one?

Never mind that what about a new Caledonia?

[threegee]

Never mind that what about a new Caledonia?

Very similar to the old one; just send us lots more money for the Scottish "Parliament" to spend - and UK Pounds please, we've lost our appetite for Euros.

Devolution Max: You meet all our liabilities, and we get to spend all the oil revenues.