All Male Sports Clubs -Yes Or No

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

An argument/discussion/point of view whatever you want to call it, the debate still goes on.

While women can watch this year's Open, they cannot become members at Muirfield

Harman urges ban on all-male clubs in Muirfield row

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Labour is urging a ban on male-only sports clubs, saying it is embarrassing the UK's most prestigious golf tournament is being staged at a club that does not admit female members.

Harriet Harman called on Muirfield, which is hosting the Open Championship, to "drag itself into the 21st Century".

The historic course, near Edinburgh, is one of a small number in the UK which does not accept female members.

Several leading politicians have refused to attend the event in protest.

Among those effectively boycotting the tournament include Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond and Culture Secretary Maria Miller.

The row comes amid a wider debate over sexism in sport following comments made by BBC presenter John Inverdale about the appearance of Wimbledon champion Marion Bartoli and calls from Mrs Miller for the broadcaster to take more action on the issue.

That gets it started. My personal views:-

Muirfield surely they have the right to decide what they want. How many individuals (tree huggers) bleat on about freedom of speech and

choice and yet when someone makes a decision, they don't like, it's sexist.

Golf - women want the same money but want to play of shorter fairways - Michelle Wie protested; qualified for the men's tournaments then; played in the men's tournaments, didn't win so gave up!

Wimbledon - Women want the same amount of prize money but don't want to play 5 sets. Yep that's equality for you.

Football - don't get me started.

[threegee]

Bee politicians meddling in people's lives again! What a private club wants to do is up to its members. If people don't like it then don't join, start your own if need be! End.

Politicians have no answers to the issues they get elected on by promising action, so justify their existence by meddling in matters they have no mandate to interfere in. Who gave Cameron the right to mess with traditional marriage? No mandate, virtually no debate, and cross-party stitch up with all the budding "social engineers" and the leagues of their "gay" buddies in parliament. A pox on the lot of them, and I will never vote for Cameron, or indeed any of the "major parties", ever again.

Democracy is something they only give lip service to. They pretend they are concerned at the lack of respect they get and dwindling public support. But actually it's only when a major wake-up call is looming (like UKIP and the EU) that they start paying attention to public opinion. Unless there's organised opposition to what they are up to the country is being run by cross-party political stitch ups by three parties, that in truth have so little between them these days that you could randomly redistribute the rosettes and it would make no practical difference to anything. The Tories have completely sold out to lefty social engineering, and Labour to market capitalism and now to rolling back the welfare state. Indeed if you think doing something about the unaffordable welfare state is priority you'd be better off voting Labour, as they'd get away with the needed reforms without quite so much fuss. And, the Lib Dems will agree to practically anything to get cushy jobs for their boys too. Principals have now gone completely out of the window; the game now is say anything, do anything, just get power! When you get it follow your own hidden agenda, and ignore what the people who put you in power think.

[Symptoms]

I don't have a problem with Private Members' Clubs determining their own membership rules. However, if these same clubs receive any financial support from 'the public purse' IN ANY FORM WHATSOEVER* then they must open their membership books to all.

* Charitable status, tax breaks, funding from Sports Council (or similar public bodies), grants for infrastructure and other facilities, and so on.

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

I don't have a problem with Private Members' Clubs determining their own membership rules. However, if these same clubs receive any financial support from 'the public purse' IN ANY FORM WHATSOEVER* then they must open their membership books to all.

* Charitable status, tax breaks, funding from Sports Council (or similar public bodies), grants for infrastructure and other facilities, and so on.

Nearly disagreed, but with just a little thought I would have to agree, if a group wants public funding then it should be open to the public. If they want it private then private funding = financially sound members = their choice. Even though I don't like it. Would have loved to have played Muirfield, but no way I would pay £195 for one round - £250 per day. I joined Backworth for that amount for the whole year. But the women's fees, in the majority of golf clubs, are still cheaper and they still want equality!

[Symptoms]

After additional thought I'm not even sure that the Beeb (a 'publically-owned' corporation) should have televised it.

Years ago in the late 70s I was invited to lunches at The Royal Blackheath Club and another time at The Shooter Hill Club (in SE London) by my old neighbour Maurice Bowyer ... he owned Castle Golf Equipment in Borough (south of the Thames) ... he was a member of both clubs. In The Shooters Hill bar there was a white line painted on the floor and women weren't allowed to cross it to get anywhere near the counter and at Blackheath entry to the premises (even for lunch) for women was by invite only.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Symptoms

[threegee]

I don't have a problem with Private Members' Clubs determining their own membership rules. However, if these same clubs receive any financial support from 'the public purse' IN ANY FORM WHATSOEVER* then they must open their membership books to all.

* Charitable status, tax breaks, funding from Sports Council (or similar public bodies), grants for infrastructure and other facilities, and so on.

Tax breaks aren't a public subsidy, they're just a little less of your own money (mis)appropriated by the state. [Labour Party writers of such politics of envy sound bites as "tax breaks for millionaires" please note.] A tiny fraction of one percent of our citizenship gives us 26% of our state spending. They don't actually have to, as unlike the rest they have a wide choice as to where to pay their taxes, but that's straying from the point - again.

It all depends if you think "our betters" should be allowed to social engineer, and I think things have gone way too far in telling Joe Public how he should act and think. I object to my tax money being spent on social engineering that weakens our society overall, and allows a small clique of drones (the political classes) feel better about themselves; that leads them to believe that they've done good without unintentionally doing even more bad - more often the reality.

After additional thought I'm not even sure that the Beeb (a 'publically-owned' corporation) should have televised it.

Years ago in the late 70s I was invited to lunches at The Royal Blackheath Club and another time at The Shooter Hill Club (in SE London) by my old neighbour Maurice Bowyer ... he owned Castle Golf Equipment in Borough (south of the Thames) ... he was a member of both clubs. In The Shooters Hill bar there was a white line painted on the floor and women weren't allowed to cross it to get anywhere near the counter and at Blackheath entry to the premises (even for lunch) for women was by invite only.

Please! The lefties at the Beeb (NUJ) don't need any more encouragement to colour their output. Though now that we have a Tory party that appears to have fully bought in to all things politically correct I'm no longer sure what that colour is. Logically it would be a muddy grey - highly appropriate for all the Polly Toynebee types who would remove all colour from our lives, and all the natural variation that so enriches it.

[Barton Lad]

I seem to remember that the Station Social Club was male only in the 1950's, no ladies were allowed into the club. How time has changed!!!

[Symptoms]

GGG I know what tax breaks are, maybe I should have put that phrase between inverted commas to hint at any additional financial benefit derived, however obscurely, from anywhere other than private finance. I'm sure you'd agree that License Payers' shouldn't be supporting, however obliquely, any private club; I'll not be suprised at the vast, additional shed-loads, of income to be generated for that club being linked to the venue being televised.

I agree with you GGG that the Beeb are chickenshit scared of giving offense to anybody and as a result their output has become bland, just like ITV. I think they should challenge and stir-up a debate but they always appear to 'run scared' of poor headlines in the Daily Mail (and similar organs) and the bile honked-out by backbench MPs. So I'm not sure that it's the once powerful NUJ that dictates what goes on there, I blame the ex-business and ex-political 'suits' for determining what we see on the box.

[threegee]

The Beeb is buying content not giving money away; they reserve the giving away for their own I think. If it delivers for their customers then no I wouldn't agree. They could of course ask the viewers what they think and act on the response - we have the technology - but of course that might set a terribly dangerous precedent.

I'm not one of people who think that digging up cricket pitches in the early hours did anything but harden the attitudes of those in South Africa. I met a few Boers on their own turf; they were not unreasonable people, and had some views that were hard to counter. They could, and eventually were, talked into the 20th Century. The Peter Hains of this world did nothing to help in this, and probably did a lot to hinder. Boycotts don't work, they polarise!

On the NUJ thing, you are probably right. All they seem to be able to do these days is reschedule a few repeats now and then. Technology and much more proactive middle management are easily able to neutralise much of their mischief, and the free market has done for their monopoly. Another uncredited win for Mrs T? So I'd be wrong singling out the leftie elements for special mention when the real villain is many decades of inbreeding at higher levels.

[Maggie/915]

Back to the original question:-

How about :-

Yes for Bedlington with notable inclusions

No for the rest of the World with notable exclusions.

What about the trans gender issue!

Then there is the argument that golf spoils a good walk.

Basically in my mind a none argument.

Boring people can be any sex

Discrimination is not confined to any race creed or sex.

We are all individuals and if you feel something is unfair work to change things or cut and run.

Fight or Flight.

[mickypotts]

what did they call the little cubicle at the bar for women to drink in? was it the snook?

[mickypotts]

never saw a women at a freemasons meeting either

[Symptoms]

A snug. I hope you weren't being rude Micky ... snook?

[threegee]

never saw a women at a freemasons meeting either

There's likely an agreement with the WI: you don't infiltrate us and we won't infiltrate you!

Oh, hang on, it's called the Soroptomists. My mum was once approached to join, but gracefully declined on the grounds that she didn't feel comfortable being a member of any secret society who would have someone like her as a member. [sorry Groucho - and Mum!]

[mickypotts]

A snug. I hope you weren't being rude Micky ... snook?

Snug is it, I just remembered the sn

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

what did they call the little cubicle at the bar for women to drink in? was it the snook?

What pubs were they in Mikey? Remember the side door for 'off-licence' sales at the Percy Arms and I was told they were originally for women to buy bottled beer to take away. As I type this I do recall the Percy Arms also had a back room, called 'the snug' that was frequented by older more mature women, before they installed a pool table.

Did not venture there allot, probably only on picnic day when the station lads were allowed to move freely but did the Blue Bell on the front street have a snug and is snook a 'top-end' term for ladies who snook put for a quiet pint?

This reply is now totally out of sequence so I have gone back and edited it..

I am sure Mikey's question was the last one when I started typing!

The rest must have snooked in whilst I was typing.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Eggy1948

[Maggie/915]

The Joiners in Morpeth has always been interesting.

Men only bar much larger than the snug or back room.

This room had traditional Mural pictures.

The ladies room had a bucket attached to a stand pipe, when it was modernised you had to ask at the bar for the key.

The Post Boy bar in the Queens Head was another of interest.

[Symptoms]

Eggs - I remember most pubs had a snug bar for the 'ladies'. These probably morphed into lounge bars later; you always had to pay a bit more for your drinks in the lounge than the blokes in the men only 'front bars'.

I have a room in my house which is called the snug ... a small room behind the morning room & kitchen area; I take my breakfast and read the paper in it. GGG, just imagine the scene every morning ... a cup of Earl Grey tea in one hand, the woof under the other arm, and my beloved Guardian on my knee

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

Eggs - I remember most pubs had a snug bar for the 'ladies'. These probably morphed into lounge bars later; you always had to pay a bit more for your drinks in the lounge than the blokes in the men only 'front bars'.

I have a room in my house which is called the snug ... a small room behind the morning room & kitchen area; I take my breakfast and read the paper in it. GGG, just imagine the scene every morning ... a cup of Earl Grey tea in one hand, the woof under the other arm, and my beloved Guardian on my knee

Mmmm a liberal I see. So your small room could be frequented by any sex, including Ena, Minnie & Martha.

[Symptoms]

Straight, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, any dog owner, all welcome. Never a Liberal (latterday crutches for those vile, vile Tories) but certainly one who exhibits those worthwhile, tolerant, generous, so called liberal values to all bar those nasty, reactionary scumsuckers at The Daily Mail and their legion of like-minded, zenophobic zombie fellow travellers.

"Ena, Minnie & Martha" - ?

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

Straight, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, any dog owner, all welcome. Never a Liberal (latterday crutches for those vile, vile Tories) but certainly one who exhibits those worthwhile, tolerant, generous, so called liberal values to all bar those nasty, reactionary scumsuckers at The Daily Mail and their legion of like-minded, zenophobic zombie fellow travellers.

"Ena, Minnie & Martha" - ?

There you go. Your chosen newspaper does not dictate your true beliefs.

Ena, Minnie & Martha = just to prove I have heard of the ladies in the snug - Coronation Street 9th December 1960.( and NO I do not watch it now, had to when it first started if it was raining etc. and I was not allowed outside) and I even remember they used to order bottles of stout.

[Symptoms]

My "true beliefs" are a synthesis of life's experiences and being widely read (from Adolf's Mein Kampf to Mao's Little Red Book and all stations in between). Plenty of stuff in the Guardian I don't agree with, including what Polly Toynbee advocated just before the last General Election GGG will be pleased to note.

Ah, now I remember Ena, Minnie & Martha, but wasn't it milk stout? I think I watched the first ever episode ... never again!

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

My "true beliefs" are a synthesis of life's experiences and being widely read (from Adolf's Mein Kampf to Mao's Little Red Book and all stations in between). Plenty of stuff in the Guardian I don't agree with, including what Polly Toynbee advocated just before the last General Election GGG will be pleased to note.

Ah, now I remember Ena, Minnie & Martha, but wasn't it milk stout? I think I watched the first ever episode ... never again!

Your right, it was milk stout.

[Brett]

Added a simple 'Yes' / 'No' poll to this for a basic idea of what people think.

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

Added a simple 'Yes' / 'No' poll to this for a basic idea of what people think.

Brett - I have added my simple Yes to the vote. I can stand up and be counted. I am not hiding behind a mask and or after proportional representation. I think the members of a couple of affiliated clubs should be invited to take part in this poll - voting invitations to be sent to Cambois CIU and Muirfield GC.

Yours sincerely

Wilf