Miners' Strike

[Canny lass]

No strike should ever happen, Adam. Striking is an extremely childish action when it's taken by adults who have the Power to communicate through talking.

[Adam Hogg]

No strike should ever happen, Adam. Striking is an extremely childish action when it's taken by adults who have the Power to communicate through talking.

But sometimes a strike is needed to make the other side listen.

[Vic Patterson]

I must respectfully disagree Canny Lass, having been on both sides of strikes and lock-outs I feel unless there is an AGREEABLE means of binding arbitration then the right to strike (withdraw ones services) or lock-out (close the gates) is a basic right!

While working to support your family I don,t see anything childish in negotiating for safety, rights, benefits, working conditions even wages! How would you communicate / negotiate with an unreasonable employer / employee?

[Symptoms]

Strikes and boycotts sometimes are the only way to win change.  Those brave souls in 60s Alabama USA and during Apartheid South Africa only had these two peaceful methods to influence change.

[Maggie/915]

As Joni Mitchell would say' I've looked at life from both sides now'

Maybe 'Power Corrupts'

Harry Patch the last tommy from the First World War advocated talking because war is 'licensed murder'

Problem as always is who has the power.

The Miners Strike was like a war.

A class war with no winners.

[Canny lass]

Feel free to disagree Vic. Freedom of speech is every man's right and lies at the very heart of true democracy. I hear what you're saying and of course we should have the right to negotiate safety, rights, benefits, better working conditions and even wages. Negotiating is a very adult way of solving conflicts. I'm assuming of course that by " to negotiate" you mean trying to reach an agreement or compromise by discussion with others, as reads the standard Dictionary definition. However, when resorting to strike in order to reach an agreement you are using behaviour not discussion, rather like a small Child does, due to not having developed the verbal capacity needed for negotiation. In this way I see striking as childish.

 

I can probably go along with 'having the right' to strike but equally I beleive that people should have the right NOT to strike and not to be persecuted for using that right. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the case when a union calls a strike. It's a case of one out, all out and woe betide any member who Thinks otherwise. We have all seen horrific reports on TV about what happens to union members who go to work during a strike and even to others, not directly involved in the strike. Here I'm thinking of drivers delivering goods etc who need to cross the picket line. These people are also working to support a family. Isn't that also a basic right?

In the case of the miner's strike, I know many who didn't want to strike. They were afraid of the consequences for themselves and their families if the strike should become long and drawn out. However, they were even more afraid of the consequences of being a so called blackleg. It was a choice between the devil and the Deep blue sea - Death by starvation or Death by stoning. If there must be a strike, then it should be a matter for the employer and the employees only - not for the general public, which includes the frail, the elderly, and, most important of all, the next generation of adults - our Children - who are Learning from our behaviour all the time. They are not involved in the dispute and have had no direct say in the matter.

 

We live in a democratic society, for which we should be thankful. Margaret Thatcher, like her or not, was democratically elected to serve the needs of the British electorate, of which, speaking in shear numbers, the miners and their families were a minor part. Lord knows, it's not Always easy holding the purse strings and making ends meet in any household, particularly when all the family members Think that their wants and desires should be given first priority. Those holding the purse strings often have to make decisions which aren't popular with everyone. This is particularly true when the decisions involve meaking sacrifices. Don't beleive me? Ask any of the miners who Went on strike. A night at the club and even Sunday dinners became a thing of the past. Rental TVs were returned, holidays cancelled and later, when savings were depleted and loans and mortgages were still to be paid, cars, houses and even family pets were sold. It's called budgeting, reducing costs to release Money for more important things. This is a sound way of dealing with an economic crisis and in most housholds the family didn't wage war on the purse holder. They said their piece, agreed to disagree, accepted their lot and bowed out gracefully,  - albeit with a pet lip the size of a dinner plate - but they did not, with the odd exception, wage war!  Making ends meet in a household with 24 million in the family, which was already  up over it's ears in debt, can not have been easy either.

 

Whether the right decisions was made in sacrificing the coal mines we will never know. We can only guess how things may have been today if they had not. Some Think it would have been better, some Think not. It's a subjective judgement. The same goes in answering the question of whether it was the miners or the government who were being unreasonable.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Canny lass

[Vic Patterson]

The naivety of children may not always be unwise! I would again ask how would you negotiate with the other party when the other party is not being reasonable and have their own agenda? and are not talking with the intent to reach an agreement but to further some other cause!

[Orloff]

I've always thought that "working to rule" was a good way to let your feelings be known to bosses and general public alike. Just in case some do not know what I mean, no overtime and only doing what you are contracted to do as in your contract of employment which by law every employee must be given after 2 months. (I think it is 2 months). I realise it may take longer to resolve issues but at least you are being reasonable. 

[Canny lass]

That's true Vic. The naivety of Children may not Always be unwise but most small Children have yet to learn that every action has a consequence, not only for themselves but even for others.

 

I worked 20 years in the nursing profession Before leaving England and I was Always, even as a Nursing Officer, paid less than a miner so I'm very much aware of how it is to be a low-paid worker. I'm also very much aware of how it is to go every year cap in hand, like Oliver Twist and say "Please sir can I have some more?". I very rarely got any more, with the exception of some General Election years when my vote was solicited by way of a few extra coppers in my wage packet, only to have them taken back the following year by way of an increased registration fee. Even so I never dreamed of going on strike. Maybe if I had been starving or didn't have a roof over my head I may have thought and even acted differently but, like the miners, I was neither of those things so negotiations could go on for a very long time without me ever resorting to strike.

 

You ask me how I would negotiate with a party who was being unreasonable. Well, firstly I would refrain from saying they were being unreasonable. It's an expression of subjectivity that has no Place in serious negotiation and it would probably be more fruitful to ask myself why I am being subjective. The same can be said of the expression 'not listening'. Maybe they are listening but not understanding and that may be because I am not communicating very well. There can be faults on both sides and Words and actions can be misinterpreted by both parties. Good negotiation is all about good Communication, so there's my first rule:

 

- analise your own Communication skills before criticisng the other party. 

 

- be aware that nothing is as simple for the other party as you yourself Think it to be. You can never be aware of ALL the details involved in his decisions, just as he can not beware of all the details in yours. He may well have Another agenda as problems tend to infringe on many areas at the same time. Life's complex.

 

 - If negotiations are not going the way you want, be prepared to change tactics, but only within the boundaries of discussion. Never forget that negotiating is all about discussion, nothing else.

 

- never threaten.

 

- remember that negotiations can take a very long time. Don't let impatience spoil the outcome.

 

- if your not getting anywhere question your own ability as a negotiater, . Be prepared to step down and let somebody else have a crack at it.

 

- never let your own personal feelings get in the way of discussion.

 

- seek support by all means but never demand it

 

and if all else fails change your job. Nobody is forcing you to stay in a profession with an employer whom you do not like and is making you so unhappy you are prepared to strike.

[threegee]

To which sage advice I would only add the "Mick McGahey Rule" (not at all understood by Mr A. Scargill): Never let you dreams of how the world might be blind you to the way things really are - set realistic, easily identifiable, and achievable goals, that addresses the immediate problems.

 

-----------------

Reflecting on your final paragraph I'd say: Despite eternal political meddling (entirely counter-productive, and effectively buying your vote with your own future) in the jobs market there is still what passes for a market out there.  If wages are low it's entirely because there are too many people willing to work for that sort of money, and so you should consider applying your skills to something that produces better rewards.  It may not take too many people to do that before the market forces wages up.  If more job opportunities don't exist then it's likely because politicians have legislated them away.  For instance Miliband's present "jealousy and envy" campaign against banker's bonuses will inevitably cause such people to move elsewhere, taking their earnings, tax revenues, and all the other related jobs, with them.

Here so called "job protection" legislation has made it much more difficult to find an alternative job and much riskier for employers to let people demonstrate what they can do.  There was an age before all that nonsense when you could walk straight into a job, and if it didn't work out walk straight into another one.  All the unfair dismissal garbage has done is to provide jobs for lawyers, built an entire edifice that produces absolutely nothing yet has to be paid for by the public purse, makes UK employers very reluctant to employ people in the UK, has exported innumerable jobs to other countries, and defocuses firms from getting on and doing the business.  Sensible politicians know that it is almost entirely counter-productive, but none at all have the guts to get up and say so!  Every time you see the words "fair" and "unfair" you should smell a rat.  Life is never "fair" or "unfair", but it can be reasonable.  Beware of politicians promising any sort of market reforms - you may just get them!

[Vic Patterson]

But you must like children's simplistic, non judgemental, unbiased, non prejudicial views! they can be humorous and eye opening. (probably because they don't see the consequences, just the situation)

Your negotiating style may work in small industries where there is alternative employment. But I must say I don't think it would work with larger industry or government.

Some! of my strike experiences...

Strike one, Blyth Power station, early 1963, I was earning about 8-9 pence (1/3d) per hour, Electrician sacked for refusing to work in an unsafe area, one week strike then re-instate the electrician, the company is then given two days for every day lost, company now meets new deadline, (workers fell for it every time!) we apprentices were allowed to work during the strike!

Strike two, early 70's, Alcan smelter, not sure of the reason for the strike (probably money) Communist run union created hostile environment, created violent picket lines that were manned ONLY by radical university students, NO Alcan workers in sight!

Strike three, (almost) Government of Alberta, Province of Alberta trades and related workers (50-60,000) Union contract was expired for over two years, both parties agree to BINDING arbitration, Government give list of 10 arbitrators to pick from (that they appoint!) arbitrators find in favour of union, government reject and use second arbitrator, arbitrator again finds in union favour, government again reject! Government then legislate a roll back of wages 5% cancel statutory holiday, reduce vacations and some benefits!

In those situations it was not bad communications but just not bargaining in good faith! your methods would not be effective and I would not leave my employment because of those situations.

I have never worked in a job I did not like! (I can say that now, maybe not then!) I have worked in many extreme conditions, many extreme hours often for poor wages, but loved the camaraderie and challenges, even the money! I retired three years ago, but recently returned to assist the employer, employees and "clients†(and will possibly be out of pocket, pensions, taxes and benefits)

While you were working in the nursing profession if a colleague (who has family to support) you knew was unfairly dismissed, and your union group were unable to negotiate a fair settlement and decided to strike for her re-instatement, would you support her or go look for another job?

[threegee]

...unfairly dismissed...

 

An employer has a absolute right to decide who works for them, just the same as an employee has an absolute right to decide who they work for.  A particular job if not yours by right - which was what Scargill was trying to sell!  Because employers don't have a vote the market is slanted against the employer, so the market redresses the balance by relocating jobs beyond the "unfair" rules, becoming a lot more cautions about the number of people employed, and who is given an opportunity.  So, in order to be seen to redress what one side may occasionally see as an injustice everyone suffers.  The solution to such "injustices" is to minimise the practical effect by making it easier to gain alternative employment, and employers less circumspect about what they say and do with respect to their loyal workers. That also frees up the whole labour market, in the sense that "wage bargaining" is no longer necessary - wages set themselves. The entire economy benefits from reduced disputes and a free flow of skills.

 

Once government and law start poking their nose into the labour market it's a slippery slope to hell. We've been conditioned to believe that all the improvements to working conditions since the industrial revolution have been made by law and regulation.  Fact is that the vast majority of those improvements (and more) would have happened anyway, in the court of public opinion and of free markets, and we'd have been a lot more prosperous as a result.  There is a role for government and law, but like the rest of our experiences, it is only at the extremes, and where criminality is evident.  Government and business do not mix!

[Vic Patterson]

An employer has a absolute right to decide who works for them,

When an employee is hired and both parties have signed a contract that both have to follow, the employee follows that contract to the letter, then the employee is terminated, is that not unfair? does the employer have the right to ignore a contract?

[Canny lass]

Vic, with the exception of the odd corker of a nappie I like Everything about Children!

 

Two Points:

 

• For me, negotiation is negotiation, whether it takes Place in large industries or small industries, between employer and employee, government and industry, or me and the next door neighbour. There are some basic rules that apply in all types of negotiation.Those above are some of them.
   
• of course I would support any colleague of mine who  was unfairly dismissed and the union called a strike - but not by going on strike. There are plenty of other ways of offering support. I wouldn't see any reason to look for Another job if I was happy where I was and I would probably change to Another union.

[Vic Patterson]

I realise the discussion is more about the miners strike for which I have very little knowledge, only that from the media.... I saw both Thatcher and the miners vilified! but I do find it interesting the views of both sides, I don't think anyone was on the fence for this dispute!

[Canny lass]

Discussion is never meaningless, Vic, and it's Always good to try and understand both sides.

[Malcolm Robinson]

Having been in self-employed business in Bedlington throughout the miners' strike I can add that it wasn't just the miners hanging on for grim death! 

 

I will also say that most of the miners I knew had a slate with me and NONE welshed on it! 

 

Not sure I would do the same these days but there was certainly comradely in adversity IRRESEPCVITVE of the stance you took on the justification or otherwise of the strike.  It was a reality we all had to live with! 

[Vic Patterson]

What I see is the miners paid the price for "the unions†becoming too strong and and dictating to the government what policies they would allow! far from the original mandate of unions to look after the workers working conditions.

My union at the time ETU was run by communists, it became EETU then EETUPTU gobbling up smaller groups to give them voting power at the TUC!

[Vic Patterson]

Discussion is never meaningless, Vic, and it's Always good to try and understand both sides.

I have to agree there Canny lass, nothing infuriates me more than the media news deliberately giving a very narrow one sided perspective in order to sell papers.

[Canny lass]

"EETUPTU gobbling up smaller Groups" that's very good Vic - (eat up 2)

[threegee]

An employer has a absolute right to decide who works for them,

When an employee is hired and both parties have signed a contract that both have to follow, the employee follows that contract to the letter, then the employee is terminated, is that not unfair? does the employer have the right to ignore a contract?

 

Of course not.  But there's such a thing as "non-performance" invalidating a contract.  I'd say that employment is much more like marriage than a sale contract.  It depends on good will between both parties every day of the week, and the constant pursuit of common interest.  Once the relationship breaks down, and conciliation efforts fail, then both parties should simply move on.

 

Why would a good employer want to "unfairly dismiss" a worker who was fully committed to his/her job?  This makes no economic sense yet we are supposed to believe that this happens regularly.  What generally happens is that there are personality clashes with right and wrong on both sides, yet the law only offers redress to the employee.  The law treats a job as a right and a property on one hand, whilst treating it as a normal business contract on the other.  The resulting muddle and meddle actively destroys employment opportunities.

[Vic Patterson]

"EETUPTU gobbling up smaller Groups" that's very good Vic - (eat up 2)

That is funny Canny lass! I never saw it like that...

Electronic Electrical Trades Union Plumbing trades Union.

[Vic Patterson]

Why would a good employer want to "unfairly dismiss" a worker who was fully committed to his/her job?  This makes no economic sense yet we are supposed to believe that this happens regularly.

I'm sure a "good" employer wouldn't but are you suggesting bad employers don't! You ask, are we supposed to believe it happens regularly? I personally haven't heard of an unfair dismissal since 1962 when I witnessed it!(the employer gaining a contract extension due to contrived strike) is it a common occurrence where you live?

I also believe totally incompetent employees are grossly over protected! which penalises the employer!

[threegee]

... is it a common occurrence where you live?

 

...the latest figures reveal a substantial increase in the number of claims. Some 15,300 claims were made in the quarter to September 2012, compared to 10,600 in the three months to June, statistics from the Tribunals Service reveal.

 

Google on "UK Unfair Dismissal"  It's an entire industry in the UK populated by ambulance chasing lawyers and other drones.  It produces nothing and has destroyed millions of UK jobs. Some employers have even paid up to people who have never worked for them; that's because the law is so slanted against employers, and it's cheaper just to pay the fraudster than pay the fat-cat lawyers.

[Vic Patterson]

Google on "UK Unfair Dismissal"  It's an entire industry in the UK populated by ambulance chasing lawyers and other drones.  It produces nothing and has destroyed millions of UK jobs. Some employers have even paid up to people who have never worked for them; that's because the law is so slanted against employers, and it's cheaper just to pay the fraudster than pay the fat-cat lawyers.

Almost at epidemic proportions!