Is there a God?

[mercuryg]

Indeed, but only Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer are named in the bible.

[Malcolm Robinson]

Depends on which bible though doesn't it merc?

[pilgrim]

interesting comment re 'which bible' there has been 2000 yrs of censorship as to which of the gospels were included and which canonical texts were included and indeed the format we take as sacrosanct (the diet of Whitby is a prime example)-- there are many anomalies - the song of Solomon is 'biblical'? and of course as has been mentioned the modern bible - i.e. the new testament was written at best many years after events -- to me the new testament seems to be written to fulfil the prophecies in the OT - there are such huge gaps in the timeline.  it will be interesting to see (if ever they are released) what the Qumran scrolls say. In the meantime we are left with the interpretation of 'those that know best' with their own agenda of course.- chucks in a dafty here ...

Henry VIII - maligned for topping his wives and the schism from the 'catholic' church -- have a look at a the background..

this is the bloke that commissioned the first translation into English and the new fangled idea of printing so that everyone could read and interpret the bible - rather than being 'spoon fed' what the 'state ' said/thought you should know/believe. He initiated a programme that allowed the people to make up their own minds up, without the accepted 'wisdom' prevalent.

 Churches were decorated in glorious colours with allegorical  depictations - its not 'happy clappy' but I think we are missing out on a lot.

Have a look at the context of the schism under Henry - its wasn't just about an heir to he throne - the English wool trade was the biggest earner and of world wide importance - but Alum which was needed for the mordanting process ( to fix the dyes and afore we had aniline dyes) was only supplied from Vatican controlled sources - this led to the surge in chemical/alchemical experimentation and was the basis for the likes of ICI!! to find an alternative.

There is a lot more to history than is written.

Edited February 17, 2015 by pilgrim

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

By hell! [no pun!],what a difference is shown between the aad Whitley Schyuul,and Grammar schyuul educashuns!!

Fascinating stuff here ,lads,aam learning by the minute,even though the theory of men in feathery wings remain in my mind to be complete misinterpretations,of what actually happened,in biblical times,by peasants,[or even intelligent people],who would never have been able to understand what they were witnessing.!

 A few years ago,[maybe a GUD few years ago,]a helicopter crashed in Aborigine land,somewhere very remote,[Ahem...so I read!!]...

....and the local tribesmen were on their knees worshipping it...they thought it was their God come to visit them......pretty much the same as Jesus

walking around the place doing gud deeds for the folks.

Something else puzzles me,and mind,aam not so well-educated as ye lads and lasses,but a hae  half a brain,ti think wae,and that is....

..if Jesus was born in the manger,and recognised to be the Son of our Lord God,by all the people who travelled from far off lands,why the jump from a baby,to an adult being crucified?

I was never taught anything about the whole of his life,on earth,and I mean the whole of his life,and I have never seen anything in the Bible,which chronicles his lifetime acheivements,other than the famous ones!!

Do I need to go back to Bible-reading classes think ye?!!

[Malcolm Robinson]

St Paul best PR man in history!

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

Pete, on 17 Feb 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

Some angels may have wings, its an interesting question.

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/angels-wings.html

 

http://christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t005.html

Very interesting links,Pete,but,like everything else which we are discussing here,written by man,and man's theories...which boils down to the fact nobody really knows,and everyone just either researches somebody else's theories,or invents their own,like me!

It's nice to have an image in your head of how you think it was back then,cos the likes of me,not being an atheist,who believes in Jesus,and the good that he did,still have a faith,that all this didn't happen by accident...even the spacemen had to be created!

Now today they were on about the big bang that happened,billions of years ago,that created our universe.....I definately don't accept that theory!

There we go!....the most intelligent,skilled ,experienced folk on the planet,our scientists,can create a big bang..!!..a  nuclear one,but still they only say what they THINK happened!!

By,aam an aakwaad bugga in me ways of thinking sumtimes!

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

I think there was a lot of Opium and other recreational substances,knocking around,in them days,folk who were high as kites stood on soap-boxes later on,and told tales of wondrous things and places they had been and seen...on the backs of

snorting fiery dragons!

[mercuryg]

They certainly drank a lot of wine!

[mercuryg]

"Depends on which bible though doesn't it merc?"

 

It does; however, if we are taking the 'traditional' bible as we read it today (taking on board Pete's correct comments about censorship) the answer is three, as given. If we include the apocrypha - books not officially recognised as being part of the canonical genre - then even then the answer is four: I can't remember whether it's Raphael or Uriel who gets a mention there. I find the whole bible debate to be extremely interesting.

 

"the theory of men in feathery wings remain in my mind to be complete misinterpretations,of what actually happened,in biblical times,by peasants,[or even intelligent people],who would never have been able to understand what they were witnessing"

 

This is certainly extremely feasible, and most likely explains quite a lot of the odd and unfamiliar descriptions in the bible.

 

"....the big bang that happened,billions of years ago,that created our universe.....I definately don't accept that theory!"

 

Now there's an interesting comment, HPW! While it may sound fantastical, what other likely explanations for the creation  of something as vast and incredible as the universe can there be? It's a theory because it remains unproven; it cannot be proven because we are not party to important elements that were supposedly responsible for it. It is s subject way, way to advanced and complex for me!

[pilgrim]

ref wilmas comment about the helicopter - it was a well documented series of events in Polynesia (it was a helicopter though) and is called 'Cargo Cult'

[Pete]

"the theory of men in feathery wings remain in my mind to be complete misinterpretations,of what actually happened,in biblical times,by peasants,[or even intelligent people],who would never have been able to understand what they were witnessing"

 

This is certainly extremely feasible, and most likely explains quite a lot of the odd and unfamiliar descriptions in the bible.

 

 

Merc, having read the Bible and I will point out that I am no expert and do not have loads of knowledge on the subject, but I can not find anywhere in the Bible that describes angel with wings.

 

The word, angel comes from the Greek word ággelos which means messenger. Aggelos can be applied to men who carry messages as well as those created higher than men that we refer to as angelic beings. (Before anyone starts jumping up and down, my reference to men carrying messages is not sexist, just trying to explain the word, aggelos)

 

An example of the use of the word, angel, can be found in Revelation chapter one verse twenty where the seven stars that Christ holds in his hand are the seven angels (messengers) to the seven churches. There are many more examples but that is just one of them.

 

I somtimes think that a lot of the early artists are to blame for this picture that we have in our minds that angels have wings, as they where commisioned to paint Biblical scence to be used as a naratives for teaching the people of the time. Perhaps it was a way of making them understand (birds need wings fly in the heavens)

 

 

Edited February 18, 2015 by Pete

[mercuryg]

...."I can not find anywhere in the Bible that describes angel with wings.....I somtimes think that a lot of the early artists are to blame for this picture that we have in our minds that angels have wings...."

 

I thought the same, on both counts, but I quote from a site named 'Christiananswers.net' where I found the following:

 

"some special angels do (seraphims), but not most.

Some Bible passages picture angels with wings (Isaiah 6:2,6). Other verses talk about angels flying, and we assume that the wings would be useful for that flight (Daniel 9:21). However, I suspect that angels can move around without having to depend on wings.

Most references to angels in the Bible say nothing about wings, and in passages like Genesis 18-19, it is certain that no wings were visible."

 

I would agree with you on the subject of art influencing thinking; as I touched on elsewhere, fairies - elemental spirits - were never pictured with wings before the heavily-romanticised Victorian era. Try finding a picture of one without wings now!

[Symptoms]

Look, those old guys who scribbled away on that monumental fiction were out of their heads on mead and magic mushrooms.  I mean,  come on now ... a bloke with a big white beard sitting on some cloud, goblins and angels, loaves and fishes.  Complete and absolute crackers!!!! 

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

It's queor,ye knaa,but aal thi folk aa knaa,who are "Born-again-Christians"[Evangelists-Billy Graham followers],winna even listen ti my theory or beliefs,even though I only make them known when required,such as on this discussion.I never

start on aboot religion to them,but they always try to convert me to theirs,saying My beliefs are of the devil..

[....oh!..there's one we haven't touched on!!]

But every Jehovah's Witness I have encountered,usually at my doorstep..!!,DO at least,let me explain what I think aboot the whole affair.

The answer I got from a few of the Evangelists,upon me questioning the bible,was,"we don't question the Bible..we accept God's word without question.."!

When I suggested that I felt that I was as good a christian as a lot of hypocrytical people who are church-goers on the face of it,to achieve social status and acceptance,like our Politicans,etc....cos I will do owt to help anyone,and wouldn't harm anybody...[unless they harmed me..."eye for an eye.."!],I was told that helping people doing good etc,doesn't make you a christian.

So what does?....I asked!

"You need to commit yourself to Christ in front of a witness"....IN FRONT OF A WITNESS!!

Can I not commit myself in private?....no,I will still go to hell..!

Whey aav telt ye aal,a believe Jesus waaked this earth,he was a top bloke,did gud,like me,but he was visitor from a far off land!!

"..and there were giants in those days....and they came from far-off lands....."[never been explained...that one...1

Noo!..aboot this here Devil!

My young Son is very well-read,and educated in lots of subjects,a lot which has been self-gleaned.

He tells me that Satan was ,in fact ,a "fallen Angel"..[not being a feathery sort-just a bloke in a band of others,with different ideas,didn't conform,was cast oot...

A dinna believe in any angels,but a dae believe in the spirit world,[which is regarded as being Satanic,by those whom I know to be "born-again"

One friend,shuddered and reprimanded me when I said I had been to the spiritualist chapel one night.......

"You shouldn't go there,it's of the devil..".....

Aam 70 yrs aad,who's ganna tell me what a shud or shuddn't dae wi me aan life?!!

Having said "believe",tek that ti mean,aam interested,in the supernatural,but a sit reet in the middle,and winna commit mesel to owt like the true "believers" dae!!

Aam a mekkin' sense heor noo?

[Maggie/915]

Good points High Pit Wilma.

Years ago one Bishop of Durham questioned the Bible stories.

It did not go down too well.

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

Hi,Maggie!

As I think,[not sure!],I mentioned was it not the Archbishop of Canterbury,or sum very high Church official,[sure it was him!],when the big Tsunami struck and wiped out thousands of people,This Church man said the catastrophe actually made him question his own faith in God.

I think he must have been,like all of us,so overwhelmed with grief for these poor people,that the remark slipped out,and was plastered all over the media,the next day.

He then appeared live on a debate,and again,said how he felt,without shame,about his faith.

This is checkable,and not just wild journalistic licence,this was from the nag's gob!

Disasters like that must surely make everyone wonder where God was,but,as I always say to my Wife,ex-catholic,with no faith in God whatsoever after the tsunami,...."Suffer little Children..to come unto Me.."

That is the famous answer,to get God off the hook!

[Malcolm Robinson]

If there is a God can he please get Tonyp and Willy to change the record!

[pilgrim]

Malcolm - now that would prove the omnipotence of a divine being!!!!

[Malcolm Robinson]

[John Fox (foxy)]

It sure is !!!! 

[Maggie/915]

Spike and The Quireboys played as support for The Stones at Saint James' Park maybe 91/92 ish

Yet another influence on life and music from the NE.

Just saying!!!

I think that is the current Teccy Speech

[Symptoms]

Mal wrote: "If there is a God can he please get Tonyp and Willy to change the record!"     

 

Of course, if he hadn't been excommunicated from here by the 'Guardian of the Big Red Kill Button' I'm sure he would have.      

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

Malc,I am a long time old muso,but never heard of Spike.

THAT is the most awesome-sounding track!

I fully expected Mick starting up,with Keefy's slide axe following![backing is spit of Nicky on piano,Charlie and co ....ghosting for Spike!]

Off-topic,but it blew me away!!

God created some wonderful talent amongst us!

Thanks for posting,it did mankind a lot of good....Bigg Market..etc!

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

If there is a God can he please get Tonyp and Willy to change the record!

Miracles can be implemented immediately........!.....the impossible may take a wee bit longer....!!!!!

God is in an Analogue domain....the  Analogue/digital incompatibility displays it's weaknesses at the Pearly  "Gates"......Truth tables go haywire....... 

........God needs re-inventing....!

[Malcolm Robinson]

Re-inventing for the 21stC HPW?.....................

Wonder if thats been said before....