Education

[Maggie/915]

Worth a thought.

[pilgrim]

I am still bemused why this county retains a 3 tier education system??

waiting to be shot down re next comment ... ahem -- here goes - the child at 14 had only one 'choice' of school and that was an 'academy' --after visiting said 'academy' and her spending some weeks there - we had to think long and hard about it. When the presentation that parents are given (death by PowerPoint) has many spelling and grammatical errors in it (and I was at school with the deputy head) - and when her homework is copy and paste (and very out of context for the work allotted) we bit the bullet and put her into the private system. Amazing !! we get reports every week - the day is from 8:45 until 4:45 - the staff are there from 7am until at least 7pm daily and often later! they have a full time nurse (ITS NOT A SPECIAL SCHOOL) and we as a family have full use of the school facilities in our own time 365 days a year (93 acres of grounds) I know that this will have a lot of folk up in arms --and can understand that - we are not privileged and the cost is horrendous, but you do what you can for your children. At one time we had Bedlington. Ashington, Blyth, and Morpeth Grammar schools within the catchment area - and the 11 plus and the 13 plus were actually great social levellers. (ok I will accept an accusation of bias as I went to king Edwards) Now it all seems to be aimed at a limnality process with complete disregard for the requirements of actual and real education  that is required by the child. There are many children out there who are being let down by the 'system' because their needs are not being addressed.

[mercuryg]

An interesting tale Pilgrim; I for one have no qualms with you choosing to use your hard earned dosh to ensure the best education for your child; I do, however, think it outrageous that you were driven to see fit to do so. You shouldn't have to: a good, sensible education should be a right for everyone.

 

I don't have children; I do have a pair of school age nieces who I am very close to, and with whom I am often involved in school activities. I have some misgivings about the level of teaching in their respective schools (West End, Meadowdale and Bedlington High) such as the youngest being led to believe that switching on a light kills a polar bear, but overall have found the standard to be surprisingly good.

 

However, as a professional writer, editor and proofreader, and someone who is therefore critical of poor grammar (and no, I don't claim mine to be perfect) I have helped a number of unemployed people, between the ages of 25 and 35, spruce up their CV's. I thin I have mentioned it here be before, but spruce up is the wrong word: each and every one required a complete rewrite. Mistakes included a personal statement entirely in text-speak; the use of spoken idioms such as 'ah' instead of 'I' (really), simple spelling mistakes, lack of punctuation, and basic grammatical errors. What really annoyed me was that each of these CV's had been created by the individual on a Jobcentre (or whatever it's called now) approved 'course', apparently led by a professional, qualified tutor, who - at the end - approved each one as suitable for use. Then, and now, I would like to meet him and ask what the **** he thinks he's doing sending these perfectly capable people out with CV's that, without a doubt, would be in the bin at first glance. For the record, of the dozen I have helped with so far, five found employment soon after using my CV, two have gone back to college, and the rest are still hunting. Being able to help has given me a sense of satisfaction. Am I off topic? Perhaps, so sorry!

[pilgrim]

I agree with you mercury. (can I apologise for my grammar and typing now!!! - I can spell - I can't type, and upper lower case  confuses my aged fingers)

There have been recent issues acknowledged in Scotland about the literacy and numeracy of new teaching staff. The CBI have raised the same points in relation to job applicants and, indeed, recruits to firms. So many rely these days on the 'spellchucker' which converts lucid prose into Americanisms and not enough actual reading is done from, dare I say it? BOOKS.

I spent some years visiting many universities as a speaker and some 5 yrs research with Green College, Oxford and there was an underlying theme among senior staff in most places. Firstly, that the levels of numeracy and literacy were low in new students entering university, and secondly, and perhaps more worrying, was that new students handing work in that was not up to standard and having it returned seem to have one of two reactions - either - you are wrong as I know my work  is good because 'that was what I was told at school', or they couldn't cope with actually being criticised. I think this is a reflection of the attitude that everyone is equal and 'on target', which seems to have crept in over many years. The needs of the individual child are not being met with big classes and non-streaming. i.e. the lowering of the bar to make everyone feel good, and of course make education authorities look good when they do the 'box ticking'

There are a lot of very good teachers and very good schools out there, but I feel that their worth have been undermined and their esteem eroded.

 

On a further rant!!!

Part of our reasons to exit the state system were; being told the child was academically advanced (she is good but not that good - and the new school are honest about it, whereas previous schools , both middle and academy were not)

The fact that I can telephone or walk into her new school at anytime and speak to the head or staff.

The meals were appalling!!! how the county thought that contracting out to a company that is basically a pot noodle firm was a good idea is beyond my reasoning. (all meals at her school are cooked on premises from fresh local produce and it costs no more -- but there again how many schools have actually got a 'cooking' staff now?  or even a functional kitchen??

On the point about accessing staff and premises - schools have always been fenced to keep the kids in - but there has been a change in direction over the years - the fences are now there to keep people out! - allegedly. (interesting that school meal intake goes up 10% when pupils are kept in?)

Two fine examples of this - we were told that for security reasons we must register a password to use if we telephoned her middle school for data protection and to ensure there was no 'risk' from any external party - now considering that myself, her mother, her grandmother and grandfather, aunt etc etc could all be required to contact the school re transport issues etc etc. that knocks a hole in that. I was told it was in case of, shall we call it 'stranger danger', when I pointed out that statistically you would have to be in JUNIOR education for 40 yrs before you could be in 'danger' and that most abductions were actually interfamilial, and the system they had would not prevent that, suddenly I was a lunatic?

and finally - one for a laugh - the academy - locked doors, security fences etc etc as they all have now - refused entry to a County appointed NHS school nurse -' because she was not on their list'

[Symptoms]

Pil, I read with interest your reasons for removing your nipper from the state sector and transferring her to a private school, however, the only reference I could find to 'class size' was this general point:  "The needs of the individual child are not being met with big classes and non-streaming ...".  I'd contend that the significant reduction in class sizes usually found in the private sector, makes a huge difference when looking at achievement .  Oh, and let's not forget the power that Headteachers have in these same schools to chuck-out those who don't perform or are naughty;  something that's almost impossible to do in the state sector.  A powerful motivator for nippers to behave and stick-in.

 

I don't argue against parent making these sort of choices but I'm fundamentally opposed to the private sector being subsidised by the state via things like charitable status and beneficial (unfair) tax arrangements. 

[pilgrim]

can understand your points symptoms -

class sizes have increased  but that is acceptable but at the cost of actually meeting the needs of individuals within that grouping and the movement of teaching to meet the constraints of todays schools.

its a no win situation in private schools re 'chucking out' as that would actually be contra-indicative of success ( I am assuming you mean financially ?) and they have an even bigger issue since they have to justify - but cant turn away fee paying pupils -- no win...

achievement... we all can achieve -- we can achieve amazing things in our lives which makes us a spectacularly successful species --although that may be our downfall as the ultimate predator.- its about allowing and promoting the abilities of the individual and providing the environment that they can grow in.

I did see recently that a labour proposal was to remove charitable status from such schools - interesting... and they would just absorb the children --where? oh of course into the very system that failed them in the first place (that is a personal view from actual and personal experience)

I have seen some recent research that does emphasise that class size doesn't  actually impact on intellectual development - but class streaming does.

and I am a bit bemused by 'unfair tax arrangements' - how does that work?? I pay tax on my income as we all do - I pay VAT on fees -- in effect 20% tax - 20% vat -- ergo 40% tax .. if  the child was in state school I wouldn't be paying fees and also no tax how does that work??

and perhaps can you explain what taxes state schools pay?

to my mind as a citizen and a taxpayer I subsidise the state system and have no problems with that but also subscribe to a private system -again - I pay twice.

and as for charitable status - they achieve this by bursaries and private/internal grants to ensure that children can go there at minimal cost (how strange that the county actually pays for some children to go to that school - and at full cost because they cant fulfil he requirements that they are legally obliged to)

I notice you have made no0 comment about the other issues I mentioned - I look forward to your views on those

Edited February 8, 2015 by pilgrim

[mercuryg]

Interesting observations there Pilgrim, and clearly with more 'hands on' experience of the problems than I can claim. If I may ask, you were a speaker, are you willing to elaborate on your area of expertise, and what was your field of research?

 

On the subject of schools, education, class sizes etc, my high school education took place at Bramhall High School, in Cheshire, which was then the biggest (in terms of numbers) comprehensive in the country with more than 2000 pupils. I had the added problem of being very deaf, and the school (I'm talking in the late 70's/early 80's here) had no idea what to do about it. I had been referred to attend a 'special' unit in a nearby school, but my mother - with what I now realise was great foresight - fought against it an insisted I was to be educated in the mainstream, as a 'normal' child, rather than one singled out for having a disability. The 'deaf kids' were left on the sidelines; I was not to be one. My grades were not great - notably English was my best subject - and I found it a struggle, but it would have been more so but for an innovative unit, the name of which I cannot remember, run by Stockport Council, and mentioned by chance to my mother by a next door neighbour. This unit was headed by a forceful and determined woman by the name of Margaret (surname forgotten) who, having heard of my plight, invited us to see her. She was campaigning for ALL deaf and hard of hearing children to be schooled in the mainstream, and had limited funds to provide equipment (a one-way radio system, the forerunner of today's FM systems) for us. In effect, as I was slap bang in the middle of the biggest school in the country in her back yard, I became the poster boy for the campaign. Thanks to her determination, 'Deaf Schools'- essentially back then a way of brushing the problem under the carpet - are now very different institutions. Perhaps we need more like Margaret right now.

[Canny lass]

Britain is not alone with the problem of decreasing standards in state education. Here in Scandinavia educational standards have fallen to extremely low levels. I understand from friends and colleagues in Spain that a similar situation has arisen there. The problem, here, is that all Children are deemed to be equal and should therefore leave school eligible for University studies.  A wonderful sentiment indeed. Hpwever, while I agree whole heartedly that all Children are equal, I have great difficulty in beleiving that all Children are able to leave school eligible for University studies - at least not within the same time span - and I have even greater difficulty in believing that all forms of employment require University studies. The needs of the individual are simply not being met by the present state system.

 

I have encountered, prpfessionally, many Children, sent to me for extra lessons in core subjects (maths, Swedish, English and sociology), These Children have completed their basic, state education and have been accepted for 2-3 year Courses of further education leading to University studies or to a professional qualification enabling them to take a job as an electrician, a mechanic, a hairdresser or a chef or even sit in the check out at the local supermarket. They have been accepted for this education despite the fact that they have not yet successfully completed their basic education in one of - and sometimes ALL of - the four core subjects. The Powers that be seem to Believe that these Children, with the help of a few extra lessons during the first year of their advanced studies, should be able to.complete their basic education while persuing further educational Courses.

 

The work load for these Children is abominable! I have seen Children who have a 50 hour working week with school work! Psychologically they feel terrible, they lack the ability to concentrate and have no motivation.  They know themselves that they have bitten off more than they can chew. They are weighed down by the burden of studies which they know in their hearts they are not capable of completeing successfully. The saddest fact is, however, that many do complete them successfully. Somebody gives them a piece of paper which says they are eligible for University studies. How can this happen? It happens because the educational bar has been set so low that nobody can go beneath it.

 

In the academic sphere the problem continues. The bar is lowered again to make way for all the eligibles, who would not make the grade if the bar was left at the correct height. Why? Because universities need  Money for research and research Money is proportioned according to the number of graduates passing through the academic portals every year.

 

Further education is of course voluntary but the pressure from society, to persue it is very strong indeed. No further education - no job.

 

The whole system need a good overhaul. Why should a Young man with a burning ambition to be a mechanic need to be eligible for University in maths and English? He'll learn what he needs of both by doing the job because there he will be motivated and the Learning will be relevant to what he's doing. Why does a Young women manning the check out at the supermarket need  to be eligible for University at all? There are far too many Young adults suffering through 2-3 year Courses of further education just because it's the done thing and what society expects of them.

[Maggie/915]

No simple answer.

Seems we as a society have a lot to learn.

Even Al Murray as his spoof character jokes that :- 'we will brick up the Channel Tunnel with British bricks but we may need Polish workers to do the work'

If we insist on everyone having an academic background before becoming an apprentice etc how many great people do we loose along the way.

Not everyone is good at the exam game.

Everyone has a role to play in a diverse society.

Private Education is an interesting subject in itself.

If it is right for the individual and money allows then we all have a choice to make for ourselves

Large schools can be intimidating to Year 7 children.

Even to certain teachers or visitors. ( if you make it past the fence and security)

The 'Old Middle Schools' , which are being swallowed up , allowed children to retain a sense of purpose without to much focus on exams.

My original post I thought summed up a life where we push all along a narrow path.

Some succeed others fail.

Personally I was educated in Bedlington and have never felt at a disadvantage.

Certain Grandchildren are being privately educated.

It has led to heated discussions at times in our family.

There are no definitive answers.

[pilgrim]

so many truths there canny lass - the era of false expectations is beginning to bite now. I sorely feel for the young today. There are very few opportunities in the workplace at the very time when some should be starting work. The apprenticeships that used to exist are no longer there. 'Enforced' education is no way to go forward. We have 3rd and even 4th generation unemployed is some areas now and this partly leads to a general disenfranchisement with society because of lack of self-esteem and not knowing actually what is acceptable.  In no way am I a believer in any from of elitism and not suggesting that we return to a 'Victorian' ethos, but I found in many areas that the basic life skills were not being taught. Perhaps the system should actually swing towards 'skills for living' and social skills for integration. (all of which were instilled through the 'old' apprentice system).

There were and are some wonderful teachers out there but what is preventing them from getting on with the job? the post by mercury is a wonderful and meritorious example of dedication by a teacher which produced results.

as an addendum regarding comments above about private schools - if the state is doing such a  wonderful job why was there a move to have private schools provide teachers and tutoring free of charge to state schools??

(I forgot to add about my comments on fences and security - from the court reports it seems children have been more at risk from staff than from strangers over the years!!!)

[Symptoms]

pil - I'll leave aside the non-meritocratic and socially divisive arguements and just stick with another point why these vile and pernicious establishments need to be harshly dealt with. 

 

The abuse of their charitable status to gorge themselves on tax breaks and VAT weezes needs to be stopped.  For example, the Advanced Payment [of fees] Scheme allows for any interest accrued on those fees (being invested by the school) to be exempt from tax because of the charitable status of the school.  If the parents had invested these funds themselves then they would be liable for tax on the earned interest.  It's nothing but a tax avoidance scheme which benefits both the school and the parents.  One of the VAT exemption dodges is where these so-called charitable institutions set-up trading companies to benefit from all sorts of relief, including leaseback and giving rights.  These examples are avoidance schemes.  I could go on about this venal behaviour by listing more cannibalistic enriching schemes operated by these places ....

 

Finally, about the sharing of facilities and teaching staff ... it's nothing but a con to keep interfering politicians out of the mix.  Organising the occasional rugger match  with Bash Street Comprehensive on the hallowed playing fields or getting Wackford Squeers to give them a taste of Latin is nothing but a cynical ploy.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Symptoms

[pilgrim]

last point first - the 'suggestion' that facilities and staff be shared came not from the schools but from the 'interfering' politicians and suggests to me an admission of failure.( I would like to see the uproar that would result if this was proposed to industry, from the shareholders, the management, and the workforce) I am sure the staff, management and employees of say, ASDA, would be happy to give a couple of hours every week helping out in the corner shop for nothing?

A couple of years back the charity commissioners stated that there were too many charities and suggested that numbers were cut by about 1/4 .  Schools were never considered as spurious or as tax avoidance schemes.

Where do you think any money accrued goes to? oh yes, as you stated to the school and the parents - as a parent we get nothing apart from an education for our child and as these institutions do not have shareholders or a paid board the money indeed goes into the school, in fact it goes to the very place that it is supposed to - for the benefit of the pupils. we don't get letters from this school asking us to buy her textbooks!!! as we did from the academy and middle school.

I know that the school also has many assisted places and bursaries for children unable to meet the full cost of fees. So in no way can it be considered 'exclusive'.

The most pernicious thing I see in the education system - (apart the alleged radicalisation of some schools in the news recently) is the rush to make schools 'academies' thus taking them out of the control of the education authorities with no oversight of local authorities or elected members. Even more suspect is the ability of the academies to set their own wage levels? how can that be a forward move for the teaching profession? 

ref; the sharing of facilities, several outside groups use the facilities out of hours. Yes, they get charged a very small fee but they use the facilities because its actually cheaper than hiring a local village hall in many cases. The school even allows the use of its mini buses by two outside groups at the minimal cost of mileage and fuel only and even provided MIDAS training free of charge.

Latin is taught at the school but only as ancillary subject after school hours and at no charge. When I was at school Latin was compulsory and I have never regretted that. It has given me a far better and richer understanding of our language and allowed insights into the root and structure of English, bear in mind that our language is our heritage and so much of it has been shaped by the two major invasions i.e.  (oops id est - that is Latin!!) the Romans and the French - almost all the words for the meat we put on the table originate from the French. I presume you would argue that languages should not be taught in any school?

Our child has just completed a Duke of Edinburgh scheme - she could have done it with the school but chose to do it with an external group. She is going skiing next month, not with her school, which, as most schools do, organises such trips, but with a former school who have invited her to go with them. she has as many friends from other schools as she does at her present 'elitist' school. On a quick recap I think that the numbers of friends whose house she has stayed over at, and who have stayed over at our house must be about equally split between the schools in the area and similarly with other children from her school.

 A well rounded and broad spectrum of social groups and experiences is positively encouraged by her school and I see no signs of any 'elitism' or 'exclusivity' except in a small number outside the school and that is inverse elitism and exclusivity.  

[pilgrim]

I omitted to add a further couple of points for consideration - how many universities and technical colleges have charitable status ? (note that the various National Union Of Students branches have  charitable status as as well)

In Scotland alone, the estimated value to the Scottish economy of independent schools is in the region of £446 million pounds each year and provides over 11,200 jobs, I would presume that the figures for England but be vastly greater.