DNA profiling and ID cards

[Dave]

How about DNA profiling ? and ID cards .?

[Pete]

How about DNA profiling ? and ID cards .?

If DNA profiling helps to solve crime quicker and puts the truly guilty in the frame then I have not got a problem with it, ID cards, not sure.

[Sw@lnalla]

How about DNA profiling ? and ID cards .?

What do you think?

[threegee]

.. and puts the truly guilty in the frame then I have not got a problem with it, ID cards, not sure.

DNA will put you away

unless your name is OJ

There's no credible case for ID cards. Only another way for big government to exercise control over (and tax) honest people, and something else for the dishonest ones to steal and forge.

Think of how many ID documents you already have. Is one more going to make anything more secure?

Is losing or not carrying your ID card going to be a criminal offence? Yes, and a lot of harmless and innocent people are going to be needlessly hurt. No, and they are a totally useless waste of billions of pounds.

[Hamburger Pimp]

I agree with threegee on the subject of ID cards.

[Dave]

I think ID cards should be brought in . All other forms of ID are quite easliy forged .. The cards I think should have DNA records on them so the two questions i asked go together. I saw a clip on Breakfast this morning with a traffic warden on .. he had a camera strapped to his head film his day at work.. This way any abuse he gets is logged . I think this is an interesting idea for all cops and so on...

[Malcolm Robinson]

DNA database, yes in a perfect world but in these days of PFI etc what if your DNA was "sold" to a private company, much the same as a lot of information is?

ID cards, why? There is a lot of our forbears 6 feet under because they wanted to stop that!

When considered altogether the whole CCTV, IDcards, DNA Databases etc smacks of control by a centralising government. We used to cherish our individuality now we seem hell bent on giving it away!

[threegee]

I think ID cards should be brought in . All other forms of ID are quite easily forged .. The cards I think should have DNA records on them...

"Just a minute sir, we'll only detain you for half a day whilst we speedily carry out a DNA profile on our new high-speed lightweight equipment! Of course it's not entirely accurate, and the result could be open to interpretation, so you have the right of appeal, and a second test - at your own considerable expense, of course!"

I don't think you've thought this one through somehow.

I wouldn't trust the UK govt with my fingerprints - see the recent carry-on in Scotland for example - and I'd rather suffer imprisonment before I conceded a DNA sample.

Any large organisation follows its own agenda: generally the survival and increase in power of that organisation. When the organisation is large enough - as large as government - the problem becomes terminal. If you think differently then you haven't lived long enough.

It would be the duty of any sane right thinking citizen to confound, confuse and bring down any such system of citizen control. And.. I'm very sure that millions would be queueing up to do so! Bring it on Mr Politician - this law abiding near model citizen will be the first to the barricades - you won't last the month out!

[Blank]

What about forging DNA cards?

Does anyone think it will be possible?

[Gary Partis]

How about DNA profiling ? and ID cards .?

DNA - yes

Cards - may be

I reckon every one should have their DNA taken and stored securely by the goverment. Starting with newborn children.

ID Cards... As an engineer, with a specialistion in cryptology (factoring, number theory, etc), no system is 100% secure. 1024bit modular exponentiation encryption once once deemed unbreakable except for govements and very large corporations. This figure is now 2048, and before long 4096bits.

As massively parallel computational systems (not bog standard computers, but ASICs/FPGAs etc) get faster and larger, plus the further research in large-number-factoring becomes more accessible (ie. cost); then the likes of ID cards become more insecure. This is also true of smartcards (debit, credit etc etc).

So, DNA, yes as the records may be protected by physical security. ID cards probably no, as there is no physical security and can be ultimately cracked.

[Blank]

DNA - yes

Cards - may be

I reckon every one should have their DNA taken and stored securely by the goverment. Starting with newborn children.

ID Cards... As an engineer, with a specialistion in cryptology (factoring, number theory, etc), no system is 100% secure. 1024bit modular exponentiation encryption once once deemed unbreakable except for govements and very large corporations. This figure is now 2048, and before long 4096bits.

As massively parallel computational systems (not bog standard computers, but ASICs/FPGAs etc) get faster and larger, plus the further research in large-number-factoring becomes more accessible (ie. cost); then the likes of ID cards become more insecure. This is also true of smartcards (debit, credit etc etc).

So, DNA, yes as the records may be protected by physical security. ID cards probably no, as there is no physical security and can be ultimately cracked.

I was just wondering, I had visions of being mugged for my saliva hehe

[threegee]

DNA - yes

Cards - may be... So, DNA, yes as the records may be protected by physical security. ID cards probably no, as there is no physical security and can be ultimately cracked.

How can you protect something that isn't an absolute measure in the first place? A DNA profile is open to interpretation. It's not like a cell has a check summed electronically readable code in it. It's smears on gel of various densities, and the result depends on the processing technology and interpretation. You are only dealing with probabilities!

History shows that courts have a very poor record of comprehending such things...

http://society.guardian.co.uk/nhsperforman...1511799,00.html

..which is how OJ walked, and why it's just a matter of time before some innocent person doesn't.

An ID card system is only as secure as its weakest link; all the rest is illusion. How can you ever be sure that the person presenting that ID card is the person who is entitled to hold it? Or how can you be sure it was issued to the right person in the first place? Answer is that you can't!

We've plenty of methods of ID already, and anyone who thinks that all the hassle and huge expense of another one is going to improve anyone's lot is kidding themselves! Like very many things the govt brings in it's likely to be counterproductive for Joe Average.

It will be misused too, and all the assurances about this protection or that safeguard will ultimately go out of the window. This has happened time and time again in history, and is a standard tactic of big government.

[Monsta®]

ID cards should be issued to british people and those who ain't got one should be kicked out the country!

[Hamburger Pimp]

You've argued a pretty convincing case there, young Monsta, but I'm afraid I disagree.

[Dave]

How can you protect something that isn't an absolute measure in the first place? A DNA profile is open to interpretation. It's not like a cell has a check summed electronically readable code in it. It's smears on gel of various densities, and the result depends on the processing technology and interpretation. You are only dealing with probabilities!

History shows that courts have a very poor record of comprehending such things...

http://society.guardian.co.uk/nhsperforman...1511799,00.html

..which is how OJ walked, and why it's just a matter of time before some innocent person doesn't.

An ID card system is only as secure as its weakest link; all the rest is illusion. How can you ever be sure that the person presenting that ID card is the person who is entitled to hold it? Or how can you be sure it was issued to the right person in the first place? Answer is that you can't!

We've plenty of methods of ID already, and anyone who thinks that all the hassle and huge expense of another one is going to improve anyone's lot is kidding themselves! Like very many things the govt brings in it's likely to be counterproductive for Joe Average.

It will be misused too, and all the assurances about this protection or that safeguard will ultimately go out of the window. This has happened time and time again in history, and is a standard tactic of big government.

I disagree , Not everyone has a passport not everyone has a driving license not everyone has a bank account not everyone has a national security number - mainly illegal immigrants ...Everyone has DNA and ( apart from identical twins for them iris scans ) its unique . As for OJ the evidence was sound he got off on the race card and the ability of americans to overcome the truth and believe TV fiction - (See Creationism) ...your DNA is you ..converting it into a readable and loggable item isnt going to steal your soul.. its just a type of more accurate fingerprint. If you dont plan on commiting an act that is against the law ( murder terrorism rape and so on ) then you have no need to worry

Next of course is the readable chip in the forearm.... just so you dont leave it at home

[Hamburger Pimp]

I disagree , Not everyone has a passport not everyone has a driving license not everyone has a bank account not everyone has a national security number - mainly illegal immigrants

Illegal immigrants are routinely fingerprinted and DNA samples taken when they are taken into custody.

As for the ones that are never arrested, well none of the proposed measures would apply to them in any case.

The point about the expensive, inefficient ID card system is that it wouldn't work. The London Underground bombers had valid ID, they just had no previous criminal history. Terrorists from abroad wouldn't need British ID documents.

The system would impinge on the freedom of law-abiding citizens while serving no practical purpose.

[Gary Partis]

How can you protect something that isn't an absolute measure in the first place? A DNA profile is open to interpretation.

An ID card system is only as secure as its weakest link; all the rest is illusion. How can you ever be sure that the person presenting that ID card is the person who is entitled to hold it?

Hi ThreeGee ;-)

The point I was making was that we all know DNA is not an exact science; were as goverments and corporations try and tell us that 'encrypted digital information' is secure and exact.

So I personally believe DNA is of great use. Even if a person NEVER commits a crime; they can be eliminated in the very early stages of any crimminal enquiry. Past cases where entire villages have been DNA tested because of a rape etc could be distant history if the authorities had info on all people anyway.

ID cards, forgetting the logistics etc, are NOT secure! Not because they can be issued to the wrong people etc; but because the technology does not exists to ensure data can not be tampered with.

Whether encryption is via TDES, AES et al, the key exchange is via ModExp (modular exponentiation) - a simple 30-odd year old mathematical formulae. To this day, this system has not been proved to be 100% secure by the best mathematicians in the world! So forget Elliptic Curves, M-Ary, CRT, Montgomery etc - encryption systems are not safe (including so called SSL - secure socket layer on websites).

I could get into 'power analysis of enc/decryption systems' etc etc; but there are plenty white papers by top experts in their respective fields working independantly of goverments etc.

Oops, have I just destroyed all confidence of debit/credit cards with Chip&Pin, e-commerce and even encrypting your files on your hard drive! ;-)

Dont get me wrong. I am quite happy to carry an ID card; containing encrypted digital data; providing the system was mathematically proven to be 100% secure. This is not the case at the moment.

So here are two challenges:

1) The ability to factor any number (PKI generally use two primes to create a modulus) for _all_ numbers

2) Create a mathematically proven 100% secure encryption system

If anyone could either of those, for former probably means you'd 'disappear' and the latter could make you very rich!

I'm rambling now!

[Sw@lnalla]

I was just wondering, I had visions of being mugged for my saliva hehe

Being mugged for sperm could be fun.

[Monsta®]

Illegal immigrants are routinely fingerprinted and DNA samples taken when they are taken into custody.

As for the ones that are never arrested, well none of the proposed measures would apply to them in any case.

The point about the expensive, inefficient ID card system is that it wouldn't work. The London Underground bombers had valid ID, they just had no previous criminal history. Terrorists from abroad wouldn't need British ID documents.

The system would impinge on the freedom of law-abiding citizens while serving no practical purpose.

you see there no fn use to the country kick them out!

[Denzel]

You've argued a pretty convincing case there, young Monsta, but I'm afraid I disagree.

[Blank]

Being mugged for sperm could be fun.

Yuk, considering its mostly men who are into mugging...

Whatever floats your boat I suppose.

[Denzel]

Yuk, considering its mostly men who are into mugging...

Whatever floats your boat I suppose.

Jism by the sounds of it.

[Monsta®]

Jism by the sounds of it.

divint start or you'll have pencil neck sweating! :lol:

[Denzel]

divint start or you'll have pencil neck sweating! :lol:

I'm amazed the post has survived.

[Blank]

divint start or you'll have pencil neck sweating!

He hasnt posted in a while Monsta, missing him?