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Question to CL: If the things like clothing and religion are "silly and subjective" then why are they such an enormously big deal to Muslims? Supplementary questions: Why did your harmless Muslim friends choose to come to a (nominally Christian) Europe? What is so special about Europe to them that they had to go to such trouble and expense compared with settling in one of the many Muslim countries closer to where they came and with a similar climate/culture? You mention the IRA, though the IRA were not suicide bombers and generally warned about bombs in order to create maximum disruption and reduce casualties, and certainly didn't machine gun innocent people. The IRA had a clearly stated purpose to their bombing (a point at which they were pledged to stop) and were operating on "home territory"; what is the clearly stated purpose of Islamic terrorism on "away" territory? Behind every IRA terrorist stood thousands on republicans from whom the terrorists were drawn, most of these people made no bones about their support - they sheltered the terrorists. Are you telling us that this is an entirely different phenomenon here?

Worth a mention I think, as it illustrates that our antipodean cousins are just as unimpressed by the so-called "progressive" politicos they elected as many of us are ours. Making a statement with your nation's symbol should be approached with great caution, as it's a bit permanent (unless you relish spectacular and damaging climb-downs), and may not quite make the statement you intended. The referendum angle on this is that we could view it as an invitation to renew traditional ties. Now that WOULD be a really nice 90th birthday present for Her Mag - but, I suspect, not so valued a present as a decisive OUT vote.

Oh, I think they are! There's a lot of "Ad Hominen" stuff going the rounds at the moment because the Remain side have very transparent arguments. We don't have a resident troll here, so it's a bit disappointing to find that you aren't actually one. Being the world language has its price, but we've always been proud of raiding other languages; so why is a tiny bit of help from our transatlantic cousins that bad? Maybe you should start your own thread on this? I don't like certain Victorianisms, but maybe that's because they are German. The "end of" was a logical end of, not a grammatical or textual one, and certainly not an attempt to shut down debate. It would have taken a whole sentence to convey another way, and I'm a lazy typist. Sorry if this upset you.

Thanks Threegee; my problem is not with you, and I'm not sure where I'm being any more personal than you are, but with the way your posts repeatedly take the stance that you, and only you, know anything about what you're on about. I find it condescending, and unnecessary; of course, a lot of that is the way in which the written word can come across - I'm sure you're a great bloke. See above - you do it again "There are many skeleton's in Juckner's cupboard, but I'm not going to repeat them here as if you are interested enough you can research them for yourself. " How do you know I haven't (I have!) and that other's haven't? I have many pet hates re: phrases - 'End off' is one (because it never, ever is); 'Do the math" is another forget creeping islamisation, rampant Americanisation is far worse) and, when at the bar, 'Can I get a...' makes me want to kill people (see previous comment re: USA). I still don't see what his pa in law has to do with it, but hey!

My point is made by saying that he won't mention his father-in-law. Please tell me how I'm meant to put that argument without mention of said father-in-law, and why I'd need to obfuscate anyway? There are many skeleton's in Juckner's cupboard, but I'm not going to repeat them here as if you are interested enough you can research them for yourself. He's an archetypal eurocrat who couldn't run a successful whelk stall, and matters don't end there, yet he wants to tell us how to run our country. Yes, I find your frequent pernicktyness irritating too, happy? No one forces you to debate here, but when you lapse into personal attacks - as you so often do - then it tends to indicate that you've lost the argument. This is sad because you do sometimes make a good on-topic point, and your contributions are valued.

but your point is not enhanced at all by bringing his father in law into it, which you don't seem to get. Further, closing sentences with 'end of' isn't big, or clever (especially when you then follow those words with many more); presuming you know everything and the rest of us need to be taught is irritating, at the very least.

Its an argument that will go on and on and on, but I do find it sad that anyone who has an opinion that is not liked is called racist or a bigot, while I may not agree with what many people say I strongly believe we are all entitled to have views and to the right of free speech. So many of the UK news programs are sterilised and bland I have gave up watching them. .