Canny lass

Thank you Malcolm!

Thanks for sharing that bit of news Pilgrim. I'm all for speaking to people. Getting it straight from the horses mouth, so to speak and Maggie, you are so right! The propaganda war is two-sided.

I'm still not getting the grasp of what this 'doh' actually means. Can anybody put me out of my musery here? Sorry about the ruined Xmas, Eggy and WELCOME BACK WILF!!

Thanks Eggy for keeping us updated. Thelma and Lenny I recognise now that I have a name.

"You can't be serious!" I'm being perfectly serious! Everything is relative, 3g, everything is relative. If there are more non-Muslims than Muslims in the UK (which there are) then it stands to reason that the greater majority of referrals may also come from non-Muslims, or are you perhaps suggesting that it's only/mostly Muslims who have any information that would help to "identify individuals and groups at risk of radicalisation from all groups, such as Islamist extremists or the far-right" (my underlining) as the Prevent Project sets out to do? If so, why would they keep it to themselves? They don't want to be subjected to crimes of terror or crimes of hate any more than the rest of us! What eveidence is there to bear out your theory - if I'm hearing you correctly - that it is Muslims who, in the majority, ought to know about people at risk of being radicalised to either one extreme or the other? If so were the case, then the security services wouldn't require any further information. The fact that the security services are asking for this information rather blows a hole in the theory supported by some people that ALL and ONLY Muslims are terrorists. The number of referrals is nothing to get your blood pressure up for. At this moment in time neither you nor I know just how many of these 3 288 referrals are genuine. Have all been investigated? Have you considered that many, or indeed all, of them may be based on hate rather than on genuine knowledge? It wouldn't be the first time something like that had occurred. Remember the Black Panther murders in the 70s? Hundreds of potential suspects were interviewed, some in Bedlington,and most of them had been reported by people with a personal grudge, pranksters and the odd idiot who got a kick out of wasting police time and public funds. So, among the 3 288 referrals it may turn out that there is only one, if any, that gives any accurate information and that referral can just as well come from any religious Group. The number of referrals from the Muslim Community isn't either anything to get excited about, given that we have no information regarding the number of referrals received from other religious groups - at least not in this article. Ask yourself why the percentage of referrals from other religious groups hasn't been presented in this article. Do we get to know what percentage of referrals have been received from Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, Quakers, Catholics, Mormons, Sikhs, Bahá'iists, devil-worshippers, agnostics, atheists or any other Group of people connected by their belief? No we don't - so it may just be that the 8.6%referrals from Muslims represents a high referral rate when fairly compared with other referral sources. As I said earlier - everything is relative, 3g, everything is relative. Without knowing how other religious groups have referred potential victims of radicalisation we cannot draw conclusions as to whether or not the Muslim community's rate of referral is lower, higher or equal to that of any other religious group. The proof of the pudding is in the eating so let's wait and see. Oh, one final question, - for today - if as you state "The whole purpose of the scheme is to encourage those mythical moderate Islamists to come forward with what they know about radicalisation" why then does the Prevent Strategy work with "a wide range of sectors, including education, criminal justice, faith, charities, online and Health"? Why not just concentrate directly on the Muslim Community?

YES!

I asked about this when I became a member, Maggie and Brett explained it to me in the same way that Malcolm explained it. It's for agreeing with a post without the need to write. The gold stars I've never been able to fathom out.

Ah! it's from the Simpsons! That explains it. Hasn't taken off here. Never seen it.

Could be the start of a whole new series of Dr Who! Hobby sounds exciting too! I do the same thing with cat fur and put it out for the birds in the spring. Now why didn't I Think of weighing the cat. Funny thing is I Think she gets heavier and two years ago, I actually found a mouse hole in the barn - all neatly lined with cat fur. Definitely an influx of mass from external forces.

I remember that our dear, departed friend, Keith Lockey used this 'doh' occasionally and I Always meant to ask him what it meant but never got round to it, I'm very sad to say. Pity, because it's obviously central to the understanding of the post ( #73). Just now I'm not understanding any of it. However, I feel that all will become clear when I get an answer. You were joking about the female deer - weren't you?

What does 'doh' mean?

Religious Education, or Religious Knowledge as it was called in my day, has indeed come a long way, thank ....... (insert whichever deity you follow)! Today's youngsters appear, on the whole, to be more understanding than our generation were at the same age and it's always niceto hear that some of us 'olduns' have continued to widen our views by continuing to learn even after formal schooling has been completed. Roll on the day when intolerance becomes a dying art right up there where it belongs together with sacking of parlour maids for indiscretion and dying of dropsy. Agree wholeheartedly about the friendliness of the Sikhs but I have to say that I've found the Muslims to be the same. Perhaps they are a Little more cautious about opening up but That's not so strange given the present hostile climate. They don't know who to trust sitting, as they do, in the direct firing line for two Groups - ISIS on the one side and the INTOLERANT on the other.

No, no, no, Pilgrim! It's much better to have a rant yourself. Speaking of buttons does anybody know where I can buy one of those buttons seen on the Ykos ads - the one on the arm of the sofa, which when pressed summons a couple of semi- clothed nubile, young men with feather dusters in their hands? (Asking for a friend). I've been round all the shops here without any luck.

Count me in for the multiverse addendum! I can swim to England in less time than it takes for my letters and parcels to arrive! I use the tracking device and I can see that they leave this country the day after posting but seem to disappear for up to weeks Before being delivered. Possibly they are hanging about in this black hole you speak of? The mystery of the belly button fluff is intriguing. I can't say I've noticed it until you mentioned it but something similar occurs between the toes in relation to socks.

I don't Think you are allowed to press your own button Maggie! It shouldn't even be possible and there are probably warning Points involved! 60 points, eh. Somebody must agree with my rantings! Nice to know. But scoring Points is not what the discussion is about - I hope.

Mercuryg, thanks for some good POVs. It amazes me too that people don't take the time to read critically. That is one of the best things I learned to do in school and a habit that was drummed into me by my parents - well my father in particular - was to "never take things at face value". As you say, it's an enjoyable thread which makes me see that all hope is not lost. Maggie, those green buttons have a Life of their own and can make for interesting viewing at times. But not to worry, I Think that plenty of other buttons are being pressed on this thread and not all of them green.

" now here's an interesting FACT that relates to my where are all these moderate Muslms question" So, only 8.6% of the referrals come from Muslims. What's so very strange about that? They only comprise 4.8% of the population so why should the figure be any higher? And, well done Security Minister John Hayes who said "we must work with the overwhelming majority of British people who abhor the twisted narrative that has seduced some of our people". Nice one!

"even requests to explain the Words I've never actually used!" I assume, and I know that you'll correct me should I happen to be wrong, that you are referring to my polite request for " a clarification of YOUR UNDERSTANDING of the Word ghetto" NB: not a clarification of your USE of the Word ghetto or a clarification of the MEANING of the word. There is a difference, and understanding the writer's understanding of a Word helps me, the reader, to better understand your argument. I chose ghetto instead of ghettoised because ghetto is the root of ghettoised, meaning "to put something into a separate, limited category" (OALD). The addition of the typically class changing suffix, -ise, and the inflectional -d do not in anyway change the semantics of the root. In order to understand just what the writer is saying it may be advantageous to the reader to know whether or not the writer's UNDERSTANDING of the Word ghetto includes the notion of a slum. I Think it's a perfectly reasonable request and I'm looking forward to an answer.

And finally, for this evening at any rate, Point 5: "Sharia law is already imposed in our country" (posted today 12.57 PM) This statement is in direct opposition to your statement yesterday (10.09 PM), that "all viewpoints will be equally valid right up to the inevitable day that Sharia law is imposed on us all." I can't seem to find any reference to this anywhere in the British legal system. Could you please quote me, or at least direct me to, the relevant paragraphs. So, just to recap, what I'm asking for is, apart from an explanation as to how I recognise a muslim soley by his appearance (perhaps you missed the question?): a clarification of what is your understanding of the Word ghetto a clarification as to why we British can't succeed with the present wave of refugees just as we did with the Ugandan Asians or the boat-people one (1) example of how any aspect of the British Culture has been replaced by a Group of refugees a source of the given definition for "true refugee" a clarification as to whether Sharia law has, or has not, already been imposed in Britain. With any possible answer in the affirmative, a wink in the direction of the appropriate paragraphs would be very much appreciated.

Point 4: "true refugees Always harbour a desire to go back home when it becomes possible and/or when they have accumulated enough wealth" It is being suggested - no, stated - here that a refugee is a "true refugee" only if he/she "harbours a desire to go back home" Nonsense! None of these people WANT to leave their homeland. None of these people WANT to leave their family. None of these people WANT to be a refugee. All they WANT is for themselves and their Children to not be forced to be any part of war, religious struggle, abject poverty or any of the other atrocities prevailing in their country. The only way to achieve that is to leave. In the case of the Syrians, at least those I've taken the time to listen to, they also have a desire to return to Syria when that's possible (making them "true refugees" if I've understood your meaning). However, they are also realistic. They don't Think that possibility is going to present itself in the forseeable future - and quite frankly neither do I. This may come as a surprise to some, but all hope of returning does not vanish on becoming a British Citizen. The possibility of returning to their homeland is not eradicated by obtaining British citizenship. So, just because they apply for British citizenship does not mean that they don't long to return to their homeland. However, while waiting for any possibility to return, they become integrated (hopefully), their Children, some of them born in Britain, grow up and become just as British as The British themselves.Their family in the homeland are long since dead (it was the older generation who remained there) and the desire they once harboured to return fades with the passing of time. I'm no refugee but even we non refugees long for home and I can openly admit that I don't long for home nearly as often as I did 20 years ago. I've made this my home but It doesn't take away my love for my homeland. That is not a crime!

Point 3: "The present influx is about cultural replacement, not about integration and enrichment ... The Islamic leaders have only got one goal: total World domination" So many people rabbit on about this so-called cultural replacement! Give me just ONE example of how any aspect of British Culture has been replaced by the present, or for that matter any, Group of immigrants. Don't bore me with the usual rubbish about burkas and religion. I've already demonstrated to you that they, as well as all other Brits, have every right in accordance with both British law and constitution to choose their own clothing and religion. As for the Islamic leaders goal of "total World domination", it's the same as with the "overbreeding - there simply aren't enough of them! They are 11 in number - the 12th not having appeared yet. They've been waiting for centuries! Furthermore, It is being assumed here that every practitioner of a religion follows their leader's 'advice' regarding the doctrine involved. They do not! Contraception, and even abortion, are practiced among some catholics. What's to say that muslims agree with everthing their leader says?

Point 2: HELLO! WAKE UP! Our ancestors were immigrants! What about the Romans, the Jutes, the Angles and the Saxons? The UK is, and Always has been, a multi cultural society and it has, until recently, been very good at integrating Groups of foreign origin. Did you know for example that the Word racial wasn't to be found in the English vocabulary until the mid 19th Century? I've said it Before and I'll say it again, the English language reflects history better than any other media. These people may not have arrived in any great number, compared with today, but then again, the means of transport were fewer and they didn't get so many people into a boat in those Days! They may also have come with a 'take over' in mind, just as is being suggested of the present wave of immigrants,but they did not succeed. Britain is still Britain. Brits are still British. We didn't become Romans, Angles, Jutes or Saxons. THEY became BRITISH! 3g, you take up the Uganda Asians. This interesting Group of immigrants is - precisely as you Point out - "industrious, Christian and didn't ghettoise" (Lovely construction BTW). Industrious I can personally vouch for, having worked with many. Christian? Yes indeed, they were workers from British colonies carrying all that was a) expected of them and all that was forced upon them by their lords and masters in their baggage. They certainly didn't 'ghettoise'. How could they? They were themselves 'ghettoised' being on the receiving end of the stick, as it were. Ghettos are unavoidable when all that's left to offer are vacant, substandard housing in run down areas. Unfortunately, when so many arrive at the same time, it's very often all that's left, as was the situation at that time, but it's better than living in a war zone, Of course, much depends on how you interpret the Word 'ghetto. It has many meanings including Everything from the oroginal, Italian getto, meaning 'foundry' (because of the first Jewish ghetto established on the site of an old foundry in Venice) through the also Italian borghetto - diminutive of borgo meaning 'borough', to the present day meaning " a part of a city, especially a slum area, (but not necessarily) occupied by a minority Group. As was rightly said, they were not 60 000 in number, only a mere 30 000, but didn't WE do well to make such a su´ccess of this Group! If my memory serves me right then it wasn't all plain sailing. Who remembers the National Front with all their Marches, protests and scaremongering throughout the 1970s? Or Enoch Powell and his River of blood speech? It was first when Britain began to see these people as a resource that it started to go well for Commonwealth immigrants. Before that they were 'ghettoised, or segregated as I prefer to call it. And, guess what, it was the same thing with the so-called 'boat-people' from Vietnam in the 1980s, so what's to say it can't happen again with the present wave of people seeking help in Britain? We Brits are fantastic at rallying around when help is needed, well, most of us are.

I must just take up a couple of Points here: We " are "falling into the trap of equating foreign travel and a steady trickle Exchange of citizenry with mass economic migration into the domain of Another Culture". Mmm .... For many years I retreated occasionally to the house of a friend in central, mainland Spain. The purpose of the visit was, in part, to enjoy the weather but in the main it was to keep my language skills alive. I stopped several years ago, when it no longer was possible to have a conversation in Spanish with the locals. The house, previosly in the centre of a small, spanish village, is now, though not having moved, smack in the middle of a 95% English speaking, urban development. The houses are owned by Brits, mostly retired. None of them speak Spanish. They don't need to. All shops, restaurants and other businesses are owned and run by Brits. Want a new gas boiler fitted, need a haircut, a mechanic, gardener,Carpenter, joiner, glazier, electrician or taxi - the list is endless? Go to the local club (British, of course), look on the notice board and you'll find lots of these and many others advertising their services AT GREATLY REDUCED RATES. I wonder how they manage that? Meanwhile, all spanish shops and serices have gone out of business. I wonder why? And, it's the same thing in the Canary Islands! In most areas you could be forgiven for thinking that you were in central Newcastle or Edinburgh. I've even been able to spend english Money in some shops in Tenerife! I Think that today we can equate the two, that's to say, foreign travel and a steady trickle Exchange of citizenry and mass economic migration into the domain of Another Culture, quite nicely. NB. This is not to say that Spain, as a whole, has been subject to cultural replacement. it's rather a question of a concentration in small pockets giving the effect of something much bigger - A bit like the muslims and the burka. Apologies for all the capital letters. as of today I just can't be bothered to replace them all.

Hi Paul, I had problems with the 38 hours knowing that he starts his journey here in Scandinavia at 3 pm 24 Dec, continues in the UK from 12.01 am 25 Dec and doesn't finish until 6 Jan the following year in Spain (where the reindeers mysteriously change into Camels)! What does Hawkings say about that?

Haha Eggy, thanks for the link! If only I'd known about gizmodo I'd have saved myself half an hour's translation time! This is apparently doing the rounds in Swedish on FB. One grandson, now 21 years old, has never believed my stories of Santa with chimneys and mince pies. The simple logic of a child's mind told him many years ago that it couldn't be possible because: 1) he'd never seen a dirty Santa Clause and chimneys are dirty places 2) nobody could eat mince pies because they are horrible (according to him) I got it in an e-mail with the message "9 million Swedes can't be wrong" Just wait until Santa comes at 3pm today! Now where did I put that chimney brush?