Predicting Crime

[Hamburger Pimp]

What absolute guff.

...

Get some perspective.

Ministers 'using fear of terror'

Stella Rimington has often been critical of the government

A former head of MI5 has accused the government of exploiting the fear of terrorism to restrict civil liberties.

Dame Stella Rimington, 73, said people in Britain felt as if they were living "under a police state".

Having got snotty about being misrepresented on another thread, that's a pretty disingenuous bit of selective quoting right there.

The original quote:

What absolute guff.

Stalin killed millions of his own citizens. Our government is being overly zealous in trying to prevent terrorist attacks.

Get some perspective.

For what it's worth, I disagree with the government's restriction of civil liberties, hence the phrase "overly zealous".

The point I was making was that this did not make them the worst example of totalitarianism ever. Examples of regimes who gave themselves powers even more drastic than compiling a database would include Stalin's Russia, Cold War East Germany, 1970s Cambodia, 1980s South Africa or today's Zimbabwe.

Don't let that get in the way of ever more tiresome rants against the government of the day, though.

[threegee]

Having got snotty about being misrepresented on another thread, that's a pretty disingenuous bit of selective quoting right there.

What I "got snotty about" was your picking words and reordering them inside inverted commas as if I'd written them that way - or even used them at all!

The original quote:

No that's not a quote. It's the entire text of your misrepresentation of what I said. Quotes by their very nature are selective, and I did you the favour of cutting and pasting your entire first and last paragraphs unaltered. Either you still agree with what you wrote or you've changed your mind? Nothing to get upset about either way.

For what it's worth, I disagree with the government's restriction of civil liberties, hence the phrase "overly zealous".

But you are quite prepared: 1) to support them in this. 2) to attribute the best motives to what they are doing.

I'm not prepared to do either. And my last post was to illustrate that neither are my views unreasonably paranoid, as you imply, or at variance with what insiders or former insiders are thinking. You put a lot of weight on those supposedly in-the-know rather than BB "ranters" - so quoting Stella Rimington is a valid point.

The point I was making was that this did not make them the worst example of totalitarianism ever. Examples of regimes who gave themselves powers even more drastic than compiling a database would include Stalin's Russia, Cold War East Germany, 1970s Cambodia, 1980s South Africa or today's Zimbabwe.

None of this did I say, or even imply! What I said was "No other state in history has had the breadth and depth of controls that our UK government is in the process of imposing. Eat your heart out Joe Stalin, you've been outclassed by the Brits again!". I'm saying that the technology and surveillance methods being used, or being proposed, by this government would be the envy of those dictators.

Don't let that get in the way of ever more tiresome rants against the government of the day, though.

Thanks for the permission to proceed. Better get as many rants in as possible before the Gestapo comes knocking. Because, with acquiescence like yours, this nation is going to be a push-over at some future date.

[Mr Darn]

[Guest mrsvic]

Forget being watched, I'm more worried about the prophesy in 1984 that places the proles as those who content themselves with crap music, salacious images and Victory Gin... that, has more parallels to Bedlington than any thought crime issues...

[Dave]

Forget being watched, I'm more worried about the prophesy in 1984 that places the proles as those who content themselves with crap music, salacious images and Victory Gin... that, has more parallels to Bedlington than any thought crime issues...

You off the Gordons now like....

[Monsta®]

Forget being watched, I'm more worried about the prophesy in 1984 that places the proles as those who content themselves with crap music, salacious images and Victory Gin... that, has more parallels to Bedlington than any thought crime issues...

aye if your a tavern regular!

[Pete]

Thanks for the permission to proceed. Better get as many rants in as possible before the Gestapo comes knocking. Because, with acquiescence like yours, this nation is going to be a push-over at some future date.

It already is, The country is not ours anymore, freedom of speech and belief have gone, Big Brother (Gordon) has seen to that.

[Malcolm Robinson]

Forget being watched, I'm more worried about the prophesy in 1984 that places the proles as those who content themselves with crap music, salacious images and Victory Gin... that, has more parallels to Bedlington than any thought crime issues...

Seems a valid point Mrsvic, its all about control or Orwell's prophetic insights into the way the proletariat are deceived as a means to that control without it seen as overly dictatorial. Course he uses both examples as a warning.

If we believe half of what the conspiracy theorists come out with and then take a cynical view it could be argued that our freedoms and democracy are very shallow and fragile indeed. Even allowing for the most altruistic of intent some of the recent proclamations coming out of our beloved Gov are a step too far and we will end up destroying the very things we are trying to protect. We like to think our society is shaped from the bottom up; I tend to take the opposing view as society having a shape imposed from above and not necessarily by "elected" Governments.

Totalitarianism might be a controversial word to use but a blurring of party lines, a centralising gov and incursions into all walks of life would seem to be the way we are headed.

[threegee]

...I tend to take the opposing view as society having a shape imposed from above and not necessarily by 'elected' Governments. ...

Ah those smoke-filled rooms! It was always thus.

The UK problem is that the PM simply has too much power. There's no effective president as in other countries, to guard the constitution. And of course there's no proper constitution eitther, so the PM gradualy writes his own constitution over the years.

In theory the monarch could say no, but doesn't because her/his position is so anacronistic as to be under constant threat of abolition from the (supposedly subservient) PM. Like so much else in UK public life it's all a complete sham. WYSIMDNWYG - What You See Is Most Definitely Not What You Get.

[Malcolm Robinson]

Ah those smoke-filled rooms! It was always thus.

I was thinking more about the commercial world as an analogy GGG where someone decides what the punters will be offered. I know it's a lot more complicated than that but if we take the fashion world as an example someone decides what next years fashion will be and others use that as a baseline in their own designs. I just think we are led more than we like to believe.

As for a UK constitution, it's about time we had one. Last time we got anywhere close was when we held a sword to the throat of the King and he signed the Magna Carta! Of course we have picked up one or two "rights" since but they are so convoluted and worded in legalese we need banks of lawyers to argue their case.

I man not sure if the PM has too much power but I am at a loss as to understand how the Commons works effectively where important decisions are voted through with 3 line whips. But then again that's the party system I don't really like, it just seems to get in the way of sensible decisions. As for any PM writing their own constitution I would hazard a guess it's really the grandees of the party in power that do that, ah smoke filled rooms again!

[threegee]

So could the latest "enemy without" be global warming? Although we've got the luxury of two imagined foes to unite us at the moment. That's if you ignore the real one of a major and extended economic depression.

Can't be the latter of course as we are constantly being fed the line that it's both global and unforeseen, and so, by definition, not any fault of The Great Leader. The culprits who must be sent to the guillotine are the bankers. The very same bankers who were members of the Gordon Brown - City of London Mutual Back-slapping Society of the past years. Oh how embarrassing those Lord Mayor's banquets look these days. Definitely not a fashionable place to be seen anymore!

Ah Magna Carta! Fed to us in school as the emancipation of the common man. Ask any historian and they'll tell you that it had b-all to do with that. It was solely about the Barons pointing out to the monarch who's pocket he was really in. But of course these days we can all aspire to baronhood - only providing the PM so favours us!

[Malcolm Robinson]

Ah Magna Carta! Fed to us in school as the emancipation of the common man. Ask any historian and they'll tell you that it had b-all to do with that. It was solely about the Barons pointing out to the monarch who's pocket he was really in. But of course these days we can all aspire to baronhood - only providing the PM so favours us!

I think the "Great Paper" and the Charter of Liberties which preceded it were more to do with tackling the "divinity" issue and making the King act under law. The fact that it did most for the aristocracy at the time is understandable, given the circumstances, but it did extend some lawful rights to all and must have been the forerunner of common law which now regulates our society. It just seems such a long time ago and we still haven't got it right!

As for the PM's favours , looks more like a poison chalice these days.

[Malcolm Robinson]

We now have Jack "let them eat cake" Straw spending 200 grand on his office furnishings at a time of national austerity, Jackie still isn't out the woods with her housing allowances, Brown and Darling committing Hari Kari with the UK economy, Lord Voldemort seeing his last summer hols blow up in his face..........

These cameras should be pointed at Westminster, you only need a Polaroid!

[threegee]

Come on Malc, you know it's just monopoly money now. The pretence of balancing budgets and "prudence" went out of the window long ago. The printing presses are about to start rolling - in the next few weeks we're told. We are going to attempt to print and borrow ourselves out of the biggest debt in all of history. All that's needed is coordinated action to see that all three major currencies fall at more or less the same rate, so nobody notices terribly much. The Yen is now out of play: they are now admitting to full-bown depression. I never thought I'd hear myself saying this but: Buy Gold!

When the ship is going down break out the expensive cigars and the vintage port!

[Malcolm Robinson]

I still think there are ways out of this GGG, but the lack of commitment or even imagination shown by our current crop of leaders is staggering. Billons seem to have been thrown at the financial sector only for it not to be used for what is was "given" for. As for printing money to throw now that will bankrupt us all for the rest of my life at least. This is the trouble with wafflers they talk a good fight but when the chips are down.........

The first signs of civil unrest are there and that's what I said would break the Euro. I suspect we might well see a tripartite Gov sooner rather than later.

[Malcolm Robinson]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/poli...EMC-Bltn=KORG9A

[Malcolm Robinson]

I find it incredible that Harriet said the gov will accede to the morality of the public rather than the letter of the law! How things change in the run up to an election!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/poli...EMC-Bltn=LNZAAA

[Malcolm Robinson]

Might be the Torygraph but still.............

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/495...TV-cameras.html

[Malcolm Robinson]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/498...Government.html

[Denzel]

Ministers 'using fear of terror'

Stella Rimington has often been critical of the government

A former head of MI5 has accused the government of exploiting the fear of terrorism to restrict civil liberties.

Dame Stella Rimington, 73, said people in Britain felt as if they were living "under a police state".

Having got snotty about being misrepresented on another thread, that's a pretty disingenuous bit of selective quoting right there.

The original quote:

For what it's worth, I disagree with the government's restriction of civil liberties, hence the phrase "overly zealous".

The point I was making was that this did not make them the worst example of totalitarianism ever. Examples of regimes who gave themselves powers even more drastic than compiling a database would include Stalin's Russia, Cold War East Germany, 1970s Cambodia, 1980s South Africa or today's Zimbabwe.

Don't let that get in the way of ever more tiresome rants against the government of the day, though.

Gan on young 'un.

[raineykid]

http://www.infowars.com

[Malcolm Robinson]

Once again ironic timing , in a week when Gov are now legally able to read everyone's private e-mails the very same Gov are in trouble because of an e-mail!

[Denzel]

Once again ironic timing , in a week when Gov are now legally able to read everyone's private e-mails the very same Gov are in trouble because of an e-mail!

The government can read my private emails until they're blue in the face. I have nowt to hide.

[threegee]

The government can read my private emails until they're blue in the face. I have nowt to hide.

A very scary remark, particularly because it's so common.

Quite a few loyal Germans thought they had nothing to hide either. The ones that ignored the warnings of their fellow citizens and convinced themselves that the authorities would act reasonably and fairly. Approximately six million of them!

It's not about what you say or mean, it's about what Maximilien Robespierre says you mean, or about what the party apparatchiks say you meant. They are the custodians of the records, the paymasters of the Gestapo, and the makers and the interpreters of the laws. So you can protest your innocence all the way to the scaffold. When the hard evidence is there (because somehow you upset someone in power, or your removal is expedient) you are screwed!

Last week an old newspaper seller also though he had nowt to hide. Quite clearly he wasn't daring to protest against authority, and simply going about his everyday business. But that wasn't the view of the state thug(s) that downed him. If someone gets charged it will because it's not conceivably possible to cover up the problem, and be a damage limitation exercise. The state always looks after its own, because without unquestioning obedience there is no state.

We can't have the anarchy that these loony-left protesters wish to precipitate, but equally we are heading for state anarchy under the guise of protecting us from things we don't need protecting from. It has happened so many times before, and at the moment it's as if we've learned nothing!

[Malcolm Robinson]

The government can read my private emails until they're blue in the face. I have nowt to hide.

Just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean you have nothing to fear! It is all about control and by a gov so out of control! I know it is excused by the term "security" but what exactly are we trying to protect. If our normal way of life is curtailed by these sorts of measures don't the terrorists win by default?

As GGG says it has everything to do with the way remarks are interpreted and the people doing the interpreting!