Leccy Cars 2

[Monsta®]

whats your thoughts on the leccy cars soon to be hitting the streets such as the nissan leaf, citreon c-zero, renalt ze and mitzi i-MiEV etc.

[mercuryg]

whats your thoughts on the leccy cars soon to be hitting the streets such as the nissan leaf, citreon c-zero, renalt ze and mitzi i-MiEV etc.

Same as before - expensive red herrings that represent a technological blind alley. We've been through this before.

Put simply, there is a reason that the Internal combustion engine won over the electric car in teh first place (to the uninitiated, electric cars are nothing new and have been around for over a hundred years) and its because they are more efficient all round.

The future is small capacity turbocharged high efficiency internal combustion engines, for at least 50 years.

[Monsta®]

Same as before - expensive red herrings that represent a technological blind alley. We've been through this before.

Put simply, there is a reason that the Internal combustion engine won over the electric car in teh first place (to the uninitiated, electric cars are nothing new and have been around for over a hundred years) and its because they are more efficient all round.

The future is small capacity turbocharged high efficiency internal combustion engines, for at least 50 years.

nah the combustion engine is finished as soon as people get a taste for electric cars there will be a huge drop in petrol and diesel sales. electric cars are much greener than petrol, even if we have to build a few more power stations to run them! minus the thousands of petrol emssions! we could build green power stations such as wind turbines, wave machine thingies or nuclear.

plus theres incentives to get one i.e £5000 towards the cost, low road tax etc

[Andy Millne]

Gonna post this again...

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/

If that thing works as advertised Electric cars will officially be "cool"

[mercuryg]

nah the combustion engine is finished as soon as people get a taste for electric cars there will be a huge drop in petrol and diesel sales. electric cars are much greener than petrol, even if we have to build a few more power stations to run them! minus the thousands of petrol emssions! we could build green power stations such as wind turbines, wave machine thingies or nuclear.

There's such a lot wrong with this post Monsta, but I will say I admire your support of electric cars. The problems are much deeper than you seem to understand, however, and you fall at the first hurdle with 'electric cars are much greener than petrol' - they're not. You even say why yourself - we would have to build more power stations to run them. Lots more. Have you thought about how many cars there are on the roads - just of Britain - today? Have you thought about how much extra electricity - that is, beyond what we use now - would have to be generated to create enough to power a whole nations worth of electric vehicles? As for wind turbines, surely you have realised - as most have - that they are a massive red herring (yes, another one); they operate at less than 50% capacity, sometimes less, cost an absolutel fortune to build, need their turbines refinnin every few years, and when there is not enough wind to power them they have to be kept moving artificially in order that their shafts do not bow - by drawing power from the national grid!

Back to the problem with electric cars, and moviong on from the environmental stuff: a short range, th need to charge on regular basis, expensive maintenance, batteries that need replacing every few thousand miles at massive cost, expensive to build, heavy (and therefore inefficient), the need for expensive materials such as lithium to create more efficient batteries, disposal of old environmentally unfriendly batteries, a lack of engin braking hence the need for brake replacement on a regular basis, and so on, and so on.

I said it before - has it occured to you why, given that the technology for electric cars preceded that of petrol driven ones and has been improved greatly in the past century, the internal combustion engine is still the method that leads the way? it's simple - it's because it is more efficient. The major manufacturers are working towards clean, super efficient small capacity engines that will provide more power, range, fuel economy and flexibility than ever before, that will be cheap to build as the idea is to create a series of 'world engines' and that will lead the way for many, many years to come.

The electric car is, as it always has been and always will be, a toy only affordable by rich people.

[Mr Darn]

I said it before - has it occured to you why, given that the technology for electric cars preceded that of petrol driven ones and has been improved greatly in the past century, the internal combustion engine is still the method that leads the way?

I'm no expert, and i have not given it half the thought you seem to have, but i've watched the progress made on things like laptops and phones.

The phone i'm using now, if i make no calls, the battery lasts for 3 days +

My first phone, on standby, lasted for 4 hours.

My Laptop, it has a 4 hour range.

Before, it was said there would never be a battery made to power a computer.

Batteries are at the stage of development now, where they contain a small charging device, that actually CHARGES the battery using radio waves.

As these waves pass the charger, they create a positive and negative effect on a certain part, creating movement. They are attempting to use this small movement to create an alternating current which in turn will charge the battery.

I believe they already have a working prototype based on Bluetooth technology, but has to be within a very short distance at the moment, and does not charge well enough, or last long enough at the moment to be effective.

My point is, the technology is on its way, and i believe it will be here in my lifetime.

[Monsta®]

Gonna post this again...

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/

If that thing works as advertised Electric cars will officially be "cool"

should be as there the topend models prices from 49 grand!

I'm no expert, and i have not given it half the thought you seem to have, but i've watched the progress made on things like laptops and phones.

The phone i'm using now, if i make no calls, the battery lasts for 3 days +

My first phone, on standby, lasted for 4 hours.

My Laptop, it has a 4 hour range.

Before, it was said there would never be a battery made to power a computer.

Batteries are at the stage of development now, where they contain a small charging device, that actually CHARGES the battery using radio waves.

As these waves pass the charger, they create a positive and negative effect on a certain part, creating movement. They are attempting to use this small movement to create an alternating current which in turn will charge the battery.

I believe they already have a working prototype based on Bluetooth technology, but has to be within a very short distance at the moment, and does not charge well enough, or last long enough at the moment to be effective.

My point is, the technology is on its way, and i believe it will be here in my lifetime.

couldn't agree more technology moves quicker every year! just take the computer ten year ago i could only dream of broadband watching tv over it etc battery life increases two fold every couple of months it wont be long before you can drive 500 mile on one charge!

[Monsta®]

There's such a lot wrong with this post Monsta, but I will say I admire your support of electric cars. The problems are much deeper than you seem to understand, however, and you fall at the first hurdle with 'electric cars are much greener than petrol' - they're not. You even say why yourself - we would have to build more power stations to run them. Lots more. Have you thought about how many cars there are on the roads - just of Britain - today? Have you thought about how much extra electricity - that is, beyond what we use now - would have to be generated to create enough to power a whole nations worth of electric vehicles? As for wind turbines, surely you have realised - as most have - that they are a massive red herring (yes, another one); they operate at less than 50% capacity, sometimes less, cost an absolutel fortune to build, need their turbines refinnin every few years, and when there is not enough wind to power them they have to be kept moving artificially in order that their shafts do not bow - by drawing power from the national grid!

some red herring there popping up everywhere lets just build dorty coal powerstations! as for refinning the ones at blyth have never been refinned (except the ones out at sea which were struck by lighting!!!)

Back to the problem with electric cars, and moviong on from the environmental stuff: a short range, th need to charge on regular basis, expensive maintenance, batteries that need replacing every few thousand miles at massive cost, expensive to build, heavy (and therefore inefficient), the need for expensive materials such as lithium to create more efficient batteries, disposal of old environmentally unfriendly batteries, a lack of engin braking hence the need for brake replacement on a regular basis, and so on, and so on.

the batterys are as mentioned in the other thread covered by a battery service program to cover the owner from expensive battery costs.

further more lack of engine braking, you haven't been studying the nissan leaf which uses the kinetic energy from braking/ coasting and recharges the batteries! anyway engine braking knacks your engine thats what brakes are for!

I said it before - has it occured to you why, given that the technology for electric cars preceded that of petrol driven ones and has been improved greatly in the past century, the internal combustion engine is still the method that leads the way? it's simple - it's because it is more efficient. The major manufacturers are working towards clean, super efficient small capacity engines that will provide more power, range, fuel economy and flexibility than ever before, that will be cheap to build as the idea is to create a series of 'world engines' and that will lead the way for many, many years to come.

The electric car is, as it always has been and always will be, a toy only affordable by rich people.

could have something to do with back then they didn't have global warming and people could make alot of money from the sales of petrol!

ps nissan leaf £28.350 with £5000 gov incentive! cheaper than a vw golf!

[mercuryg]

couldn't agree more technology moves quicker every year! just take the computer ten year ago i could only dream of broadband watching tv over it etc battery life increases two fold every couple of months it wont be long before you can drive 500 mile on one charge!

All very well, and Mr Darn is right in what he says, but he - and you - are talkin about laptops, mobile phones and the like. Here we're talking about batteries to power a car. Not just power the car, remember, but all of its ancilliaries, too - lights, and so on.

Indeed, what Mr Darn says is interesting, in that while raising hope he dashes it with one comment - 'My laptop has a four hour range'. Four hours, thats it - to power a laptop.

The point you're missing, that i've raised a couple of times already and is the sticking point that even the manufacturers agree upon, is that electric cars are not new; the concept is not new, the technology is not new. In the 1950's it was possible - and it was done - to build an electric car with batteries that would power it for a sixty mile range; what's the average projected range of an electric car now? No, tell you what, what's the range of the Citroen C-zero, also built as a Mitsubishi and set to be one of themost widespread models of all? 80 miles. With constant development, much expense, massive investment and technological advances in all manner of electrical motors and batteries, in 60 years we get an extra 20 miles. And that, by the way, is at a constant 30mph.

It has already been universally accepted by the motor manufacturers that electric vehicles are of use as 'city cars', runarounds that will do short journeys, with much stopping and starting (this being teh reason milk floats used electric power it's ideal for them) and that's great, really great, but models like the tesla are simply showcase devices, extremely expensive, which look like major white elephants when compared with similar petrol engined models in their class.

So let;s be honest, and take the C-Zero as the benchmark; it will get you 80 miles, you charge it up in six hours (and, remember, pay for that charging), you can do the shopping in it, take the kids to school, all great, and it costs at least £10,000. That's why it's a plaything for rich people.

If battery life did, indeed, increase 'two fold' every couple of months, given that the average electric car from the 50's could give you 60 miles, you'd have a range of well over 500 miles by now, Monsta. The truth is, it doesn't, and it won't.

[mercuryg]

as for refinning the ones at blyth have never been refinned

I think you'll find they have. I'm not averse, however, to your suggestion of new nuclear stations; without them we'll be livin in the dark by 2025, never mind runnign electric cars.

the batterys are as mentioned in the other thread covered by a battery service program to cover the owner from expensive battery costs.

No they're not - you pay a rental for the batteries, an additional fee to the cost of teh car.

anyway engine braking knacks your engine thats what brakes are for!

No it doesn't - do you actually drive a car?

could have something to do with back then they didn't have global warming and people could make alot of money from the sales of petrol!

Are you suggesting that climate change wasn't around a hundred years ago?

ps nissan leaf £28.350 with £5000 gov incentive! cheaper than a vw golf!

Ok, we'll use the Nissan Leaf as our benchmark, then. £23,000 for a car that does a 100 miles before it stops, dead (and that 100 miles, again, is at a standard 30mph.) Are you suggesting that's 'good value'? Assuming you use it to go to work, and that's a 30 mile round trip (reasonable, and less than the average) - that's easily three charges a week. How much power is taken in charging the car over a five year lifespan (the lower end of the battery life) and how does that compare to an efficient small capacity internal combustion engine in terms of emissions?

Sorry Monsta, like I said I admire your commitment to the proposed emission free vehicles, and so on, but this really is barking up the wrong tree. Electric cars are a no go in mass terms.

[Monsta®]

I think you'll find they have. I'm not averse, however, to your suggestion of new nuclear stations; without them we'll be livin in the dark by 2025, never mind runnign electric cars.

no they have not the ones out at sea have the peir ones have not! the pier caught fire and they had to renew the power cable, but no work on the fins has been carried out and is not due until 2016. straight from e.on

No they're not - you pay a rental for the batteries, an additional fee to the cost of teh car.

thats what i said! service plan

No it doesn't - do you actually drive a car?

try jamming it in first doing 90!!!! same thing only not as harsh is happening every time you use engine braking plus all the extra stress on the transmission, axles and driveshafts.

Are you suggesting that climate change wasn't around a hundred years ago?

no only people wern't aware that pumping greenhouse gases into the atmosphere would do so much harm!

Ok, we'll use the Nissan Leaf as our benchmark, then. £23,000 for a car that does a 100 miles before it stops, dead (and that 100 miles, again, is at a standard 30mph.) Are you suggesting that's 'good value'? Assuming you use it to go to work, and that's a 30 mile round trip (reasonable, and less than the average) - that's easily three charges a week. How much power is taken in charging the car over a five year lifespan (the lower end of the battery life) and how does that compare to an efficient small capacity internal combustion engine in terms of emissions?

Sorry Monsta, like I said I admire your commitment to the proposed emission free vehicles, and so on, but this really is barking up the wrong tree. Electric cars are a no go in mass terms.

technophobia the fear or dislike of advanced technology or complex devices.

[Mr Darn]

All very well, and Mr Darn is right in what he says, but he - and you - are talkin about laptops, mobile phones and the like. Here we're talking about batteries to power a car. Not just power the car, remember, but all of its ancilliaries, too - lights, and so on.

Possibly, but think back to the first mobile phone.

The battery was a car battery (ok ok, i exaggerate, but it wasn't far off!), that had a handle to carry it round.

Now they have developed a battery that is bendable, paper thin (120gsm paper) and at A4 size can power an led picture frame light for over a week.

Every season in F! we see more technology that makes the car more efficient, to the point of a toddler can push it along the track like a baby walker. (i saw a press release somewhere, i'll dig it out)

The only hurdle is cost. If they can find a use to Mass Produce these developments regularly, to fund further research, a huge range is not far away.

They can make a car now that can do 500 miles on a charge, the problem is it costs £300,000,000 (ish) to build!

The simple facts in all this is simple.

The government wont allow mass production of efficient electric cars, because of the tax they get from the pumps, and the back handers they get from the oil company's to keep it that way!

Even if it is unprovable, i still think its the case, and it will take alot to make me think otherwise.

Was it not the case, tobacco and alcohol would have been banned years ago.

[mercuryg]

Now they have developed a battery that is bendable, paper thin (120gsm paper) and at A4 size can power an led picture frame light for over a week.

yes, that's true, but that's for a mobile phone, not a car.

Every season in F! we see more technology that makes the car more efficient, to the point of a toddler can push it along the track like a baby walker. (i saw a press release somewhere, i'll dig it out)

If it's F1 i'll have the press release; check out www.updatef1.com, it's the biggest independent f1 website, i.e. not run by a publishing house, in the world today, and I edit it. The thing is that F1 has nothing to do with road cars. Anything that goes from F1 to road cars is minimal. Those machines are designed to last a four hundred miles and then need a complete rebuild. An example of where F1 does it wrong - last year the FIA introduced KERS, kinetic energy recovery systems (as used by the Leaf, and mentioned by Monsta) as they were said to be seen as the next big thing in road car technology. In fact they're not; they are expensive, inefficient systems that are unreliable and return poor results, and this after fifteen years - at least - of research and development by some very, very bright bods (indeed, Mclaren introduced KERS on its F1 car in 1997 - it was instantly banned). The auto industry sees KERS as something with very limited use, but also views it as a 'look, we're doing something' message, which is why it appears on the Leaf, and others, but not on conventional road cars. (Incidentally, the biggest development house for KERS in Europe - Williams Grand Prix Engineering.

The only hurdle is cost. If they can find a use to Mass Produce these developments regularly, to fund further research, a huge range is not far away.

They can make a car now that can do 500 miles on a charge, the problem is it costs £300,000,000 (ish) to build!

That's right, and the reason it costs that much is not because it isn't mass produced, it's because th technology it uses is bloody expensive, not green at all, and not conducive to use on the roads. It's in its infancy, unproven, and the car itself is very, very slow. Even the modern, current electric cars that Monsta is championing (and don't get me wrong, i'm all for althernative fuels and !*!@#, it's simply that we are noweher near to viable replacement for the combustion engine) will give you a hundred miles, but at a snails pace; take one on the motorway and start cruising at 60mph and you'll get to Newcastle before it stops. I'm not kidding, not exaggeratiing, this is as far as they have got, and this is with the might of the world's manufacturers working together.

Granted, we'll have electric vehicles one day, but as a personal form of transport, as a viable car, they simply are not ready yet; that's why production levels are low.

The simple facts in all this is simple.

The government wont allow mass production of efficient electric cars, because of the tax they get from the pumps, and the back handers they get from the oil company's to keep it that way!

Even if it is unprovable, i still think its the case, and it will take alot to make me think otherwise.

Was it not the case, tobacco and alcohol would have been banned years ago.

I can't agree with you, although there is a point to be made, but the thing you're missing is that the oil companies are desperately lookign for alternatives to their current product because it will, eventually, run out (although nowhere near as quickly as th doom-mongers will have us told). Further, it's not up to teh governement, and again, if the government were so keen why are they offering incentives for electric cars? I think it is unprovable, but then it's not the government that makes cars.

Look at it this way - which car manufacturers does our government have any influence over now? None.

I feel that as the one putting electric cars down here i'm being somewhet mis-heard; i'm not against electric cars - give me one that is safe, efficient, has a great range, can be 'filled up' once a week and take me to where I want to go every day, there and back, doesn't increase my electricity bill by a fortune, won't necessitate the building of vastly more power stations than we already need, doesn't use materials in the batteries that involve raping the areas they are found, doesn't need the expensive batteries replacing every 5000 miles, and so on, and i'll happily welcome it, but it doesn't exist.

Electric cars, as we know them now, as the Nissan Leaf and it's compatriots are, ar simply vanity toys for rich people to say 'look at me, i'm saving the planet' when, in fact, they're not. That's not an opinion, it's a fact, and it's borne out entirely by the £28,000 price tag of a 21st century electric, state of the art Nissan that gets you a hundred miles.

here's the way I see it - in 50 years, say, when the cost of petrol and diesel is prohibitive, the personal car will be a thing of th past; we will have electric vehicles, but not cars - buses. Public transport will be king.

[Monsta®]

Electric cars, as we know them now, as the Nissan Leaf and it's compatriots are, ar simply vanity toys for rich people to say 'look at me, i'm saving the planet' when, in fact, they're not. That's not an opinion, it's a fact, and it's borne out entirely by the £28,000 price tag of a 21st century electric, state of the art Nissan that gets you a hundred miles.

£28,350 minus £5000 incentive!

http://www.nissan.co...es/leaf/pricing

[mercuryg]

£28,350 minus £5000 incentive!

[

Great, so that's £23,000 for a car that goes 100 miles on a full tank. have you thought about this - what if you want to go somewhere that's 60 miles away? How do you get home?

[Vic Patterson]

Our next town is over 100 miles away!

[Monsta®]

Great, so that's £23,000 for a car that goes 100 miles on a full tank. have you thought about this - what if you want to go somewhere that's 60 miles away? How do you get home?

recharge it at one of the proposed charging points being installed across the u.k!

http://www.pod-point.com/?gclid=CJKZmbLBiaICFRUslAod9iFYVw

a 30min charge gives you 80% battery

[mercuryg]

recharge it at one of the proposed charging points being installed across the u.k!

http://www.pod-point.com/?gclid=CJKZmbLBiaICFRUslAod9iFYVw

a 30min charge gives you 80% battery

That's just it - you've hit the nail on the head; to achieve practicality you would have to have millions of these 'pod points' across the UK, one every few miles on every road, or you're going to have electric cars stopping left, right and centre just short of their recharging point. How much is it going to cost to install them everywhere? What if you want to take your family for picnic in the wilds of the Yorkshire Dales - is there going to be one at every remote beauty spot? Looking at the various blurbs for these systems they claim to be free - how can that be so? Who is going to pay for the electricity - the power fairies? I want to drive down to London to visit my sister - i'm going to have to stop every 80 miles and wait half an hour while my car is charged; given that at 60mph, on the motorway, it's going to take me five hours (that's at constant speed) to start with, and that 60mph isn't going to give me 100 miles from my shiny new £23grand Nissan, i'm probably looking at charging every 60 miles at least. That's four charges, that's an extra couple of hours on my travelling time, and that's optimistic. Seven hours to drive to London in £23,000 brand new car - you do see the problem, surely?

I understand that you see a shiny new petrol free future - and granted, that would be brilliant - but until these simple, practical problems have been ironed out the electric car is suitable only for short journeys into and out of towns and cities - great as that is, it's a limited market that is unlikely to extend to many moe than a handful of Nissan leaf's being sold to some wealthy people who can afford the extravagance. This isn't me not wanting electric cars to be successful, it's me being extremely practical and seeing that it's a long way in teh future.

[Mr Darn]

There is a simple solution to the 30 minute charge.

Have removable batteries.

I've touched on this in another thread i'm sure.

You drive into the station, over a machine that drops your battery out of your car and replaces a new one in less time it takes an F1 car to have 4 wheels changed and a tank of fuel filled.

Simples!

These "garages" simply have a few of these on charge at once. Say it takes (realistically) 5 minutes to swap a battery once the system is refined.

That means, in a half hour charging period, you can get 6 batteries charged, on a rolling system (the one thats removed gets put straight on charge, and is in the queue to be replaced in at least 30 minutes (Depending on demand of course)) with a few spares on hand just in case one of them is broken/needs fixed/taken from service.

so, for a standard garage, with 8 pumps, you would need say 50 batteries charging on the premises at any one time and easily cope with demand.

Seeing as how an average fill-up and payment now takes an average of 6.5 minutes (Source: ASDA petrol station training manual) and you get an average of 300 miles on a tank (i do anyways) that reduces this "inconvenient" 2 hour figure to about 15-20 minutes.

Refining the changeover further you could easily get it to less than a minute per changeover. That's got to rival your 5 hour journey... surely!

[Monsta®]

That's just it - you've hit the nail on the head; to achieve practicality you would have to have millions of these 'pod points' across the UK, one every few miles on every road, or you're going to have electric cars stopping left, right and centre just short of their recharging point. How much is it going to cost to install them everywhere? What if you want to take your family for picnic in the wilds of the Yorkshire Dales - is there going to be one at every remote beauty spot? Looking at the various blurbs for these systems they claim to be free - how can that be so? Who is going to pay for the electricity - the power fairies? I want to drive down to London to visit my sister - i'm going to have to stop every 80 miles and wait half an hour while my car is charged; given that at 60mph, on the motorway, it's going to take me five hours (that's at constant speed) to start with, and that 60mph isn't going to give me 100 miles from my shiny new £23grand Nissan, i'm probably looking at charging every 60 miles at least. That's four charges, that's an extra couple of hours on my travelling time, and that's optimistic. Seven hours to drive to London in £23,000 brand new car - you do see the problem, surely?

I understand that you see a shiny new petrol free future - and granted, that would be brilliant - but until these simple, practical problems have been ironed out the electric car is suitable only for short journeys into and out of towns and cities - great as that is, it's a limited market that is unlikely to extend to many moe than a handful of Nissan leaf's being sold to some wealthy people who can afford the extravagance. This isn't me not wanting electric cars to be successful, it's me being extremely practical and seeing that it's a long way in teh future.

no i cant see any problems! if you want to go to london catch a train as londons already to congested! and you dont have to stop every 60miles the battery last the full 100miles . as me and mr darn have been saying battery technology is advancing and you will soon not have to stop and recharge as for the leaf it is designed as urban transport.

and another thing stopping 4 times aint so bad as the electic is free and your suppost to have a break every 2 hours anyway!

http://www.carrentals.co.uk/blog/how-long-should-you-drive-before-you-take-a-break.html

[Vic Patterson]

As Mr. Darn suggests exchange batteries is a great solution, I have read of exchange power modules (but I think they were hydrogen for Vancouver transit) and battery technology is moving along fast.

With regenerative braking and solar power to assist with the travel range it could become feasible, but anything less than 500 km isn't really practicable considering the terrain and weather.

[Mr Darn]

I'm with monsta here...

If i want to travel to london, what better way than to use one of the many car-share schemes?

Park your car at the train station, Bit of a play on the laptop on the way down (and at an average speed much higher than the car!) then hire another electric car with a short range when your down there.

It's on its way! Embrace it!

[mercuryg]

I'm with monsta here...

If i want to travel to london, what better way than to use one of the many car-share schemes?

Park your car at the train station, Bit of a play on the laptop on the way down (and at an average speed much higher than the car!) then hire another electric car with a short range when your down there.

It's on its way! Embrace it!

Hang on, the two of you have just defeated your own argument; you're openly admitting that the Nissan Leaf, one of the most advanced and modern of the new breed of electric cars, is utterly useless for anyone wanting to travel any distance. In suggesting that it's better to use an alternative you're pointing out its mighty limitations.

besides, I don't want to take the train, because I've just spent £23,000 on a car, and for £23,000 it should be able to do the job without me having to take the train. When i get to my destination I want to be able to get in my car and visit brighton, pop over to Goodwood for some racing, call on relatives in Maidstone, etc; I don't want to be limited by having to use the train.

Battery replacement is, in an ideal world, a great idea, but the same limitations apply - you can only go so far on one set of batteries, and you will have to have these battery replacement centres every few miles as not everybody is starting from the same place and heading for the same destination. Monsta, batteries last 100 miles, but not at a safe and steady 60mph on the motorway they don't, and no matter how much you try to dress it up, battery technology isn't advancing at the rate of 'twofold every couple of months' - as already pointed out in 60 years battery technology, as needed for cars, is simply static.

Furthermore, you again point out the limitations in electric cars design as you state, quite correctly, it is designed for urban transport; it might have passed your notice that all but a very few (the Tesla etc) are designed for urban transport, because - quite simply - of the problems i've highlighted. I've already stated electric cars are great as 'city cars' - but who other than the wealthy looking for a plaything and an 'I'm green, I am' sign is going to pay £23,000 for an urban car? As you said, take the train, or the bus.

I'm interested to see how many Nissan Leaf's are sold in the UK in the next twelve months - i'll bet yo any money its in two figures, no more than a hundred.

[Monsta®]

Hang on, the two of you have just defeated your own argument; you're openly admitting that the Nissan Leaf, one of the most advanced and modern of the new breed of electric cars, is utterly useless for anyone wanting to travel any distance. In suggesting that it's better to use an alternative you're pointing out its mighty limitations.

nobody has said its useless at long distances only put forward alternatives i.e trains and a car share idea!

besides, I don't want to take the train, because I've just spent £23,000 on a car, and for £23,000 it should be able to do the job without me having to take the train. When i get to my destination I want to be able to get in my car and visit brighton, pop over to Goodwood for some racing, call on relatives in Maidstone, etc; I don't want to be limited by having to use the train.

who in reality drives from northumberland to brighton every day?

Battery replacement is, in an ideal world, a great idea, but the same limitations apply - you can only go so far on one set of batteries, and you will have to have these battery replacement centres every few miles as not everybody is starting from the same place and heading for the same destination. Monsta, batteries last 100 miles, but not at a safe and steady 60mph on the motorway they don't, and no matter how much you try to dress it up, battery technology isn't advancing at the rate of 'twofold every couple of months' - as already pointed out in 60 years battery technology, as needed for cars, is simply static.

eh i think you'll find it does check out the nissan site it rated for 100miles range doing 90mph!

Furthermore, you again point out the limitations in electric cars design as you state, quite correctly, it is designed for urban transport; it might have passed your notice that all but a very few (the Tesla etc) are designed for urban transport, because - quite simply - of the problems i've highlighted. I've already stated electric cars are great as 'city cars' - but who other than the wealthy looking for a plaything and an 'I'm green, I am' sign is going to pay £23,000 for an urban car? As you said, take the train, or the bus.

I'm interested to see how many Nissan Leaf's are sold in the UK in the next twelve months - i'll bet yo any money its in two figures, no more than a hundred.

funny two figures! in the U.S theres already a 50,000 long waiting list!

[Mr Darn]

I take it by your statement you will also be driving on holiday to foreign countries such as greece, Austrailia, America etc, as obviously, you just paid 23,000 for a car, why can't you use it?

Ok, ok. the battery wont get us that far, as is just won't last that long.

Scalextric has been around since i was a kid. are you telling me placing a track in the road to boost cars battery is also a non starter?

It wouldn't even have to be in all lanes, you could place it in a slow lane, so you just pull off the main road and drive along that section at a slower speed for half an hour to recharge, before rejoining the main carriageway. (

I find your defeatist attitude on this to be in the same league as Monsta and Bedlington's development.

Instead of pointing out what we can't do... how about pointing out something we can do?