Petition to Call a Temporary Halt to All Immigration

[mercuryg]

"Isn't it time we stopped tarring every muslim with the same Dirty brush."

 

My point precisely, Canny Lass. It is time, and it's also time people took the time to become more educated on the subject (and your post above is a perfect place to begin!) I am not religious, yet I accept others right to believe; I find the whole Islamaphobia trait that is rife now to be wholly digusting; furthermore, it is exactly how the radical element want us to think. I feel very, very sorry for the everyday Muslims - here and elsewhere - who are viewed with suspicion for what I see as no reason at all. The actions of a few do not amount to those of all.

[Canny lass]

I'm not religious either Mercury but I am both curious and interested in other people and their Culture. Couldn't agree more about the need for education in this area but a better Place to start is by talking to muslims. They'll willingly discuss their belief without trying to force it on you - unlike some Christian Groups who regularly knock on the door.

 

I can't say I'm disgusted, more disheartened, by the islamophobia that's pervading our society just now but I am "very much afraid" (to quote a regular contributor on this site). Islamophobia is a much bigger threat today than terrorism.

[threegee]

Ah! I see you read the Beano too 3g!

 

Are you trying to tell me that I should believe that all all Brits are murderers just because a couple of them have been tried and convicted for that crime? I'd better keep that quiet for the Swedish government. They might send me back!

 

Nope, I'm trying to tell you that we have enough problems of our own without importing an entirely new set of problems which we (with a few apparent exceptions, like you) are utterly clueless about.

 

If your are living there and allowing your children to be radicalised by ignorant and evil old men posing as sages; trying to create a parallel justice system to the native one; are passive whilst other Brits commit atrocities elsewhere in the World; are attempting to out-breed the local population with the covert intent of taking over one day; believe that your religion is the only one that has any right to exist, etc. - then you should pack your bags and return to primitive old Blighty without any delay, and not wait for them to send you back.  Sweden is for ordinary Swedes, and any change should be in tiny increments, not imposed by "infidels" and/or as part of the agenda of an elite class - an over-class who have comprehensively insulated themselves from the direct consequences of their own actions.  And, a class who tag anyone who says hold on lets rethink this one as flavour-of-the-month-phobic!  Those people are never around when the direct consequences of their pet theories become evident to all us Beano readers.

[Canny lass]

Why do the Words 'mountain' and 'molehill' spring to mind when reading that?

Edited November 27, 2015 by Canny lass

[Maggie/915]

Religion can be used to justify any action or reaction!

Often the issue is about 'power' and nothing to do with anything else.

I think we need to remember John Lennon's lyrics in Imagine

[webtrekker]

Religion can be used to justify any action or reaction!

Often the issue is about 'power' and nothing to do with anything else.

I think we need to remember John Lennon's lyrics in Imagine

Except the 'Hell' isn't below us Maggie..... we're in it!

[Maggie/915]

The Brotherhood of Man.

Unless your after power and that power corrupts.

Nuclear power worries me the most.

Our lives were changed during

'The Bay Of Pigs' era.

If not before.

[pilgrim]

I have no problem with the origins or ethnicity of folk in the UK. (after all we are a 'bastardised race' made up of many and diverse backgrounds) I find that the 'work ethic' is much more prevalent in 'incomers' than in the native species. There are huge problems with second and third generation legal migrants because of many reasons - look at Rochdale etc. and this is also a something in Newcastle, and I know that the 'original' migrants despair at times of the disenfranchised youth. 

This is not a fault of the post colonialization period but a problem with integration. I was in Deptford many years ago with a friend and at a party - I was somewhat concerned as mate was the spitting image of Bob Markley and I was the only white guy - but he said don't worry (no it wasn't a song!) they don't just hate you - they hate everyone!!

I have been welcomed into many Asian and Chinese homes over the years and enjoyed great hospitality, but you have to respect their social mores and traditions.

we are seeing nothing more now than the - no blacks, no irish, no dogs signs in B&B places in the 60's but the press have yet again neglected the responsibility of the fourth estate to report and inform and have gone off on one to scaremonger. there is a real and present danger from a very small minority of migrants and illegals - but this has been building up over many years. methinks - and I hope the opportunity has not been lost - that it is time to build a 'green and pleasant land' with the co-operation and input of ALL ethnic origins who have a vested interest in the UK. 

[webtrekker]

Britain should be British, none of your foreign crap!

 

I want to be able to walk in peace and without fear down Bedlington's good old Schalksmühle Road!

[pilgrim]

i knew it was all going wrong when they started using them foreign weights and measures -- i still work in pounds and inches -- damn foriegners giving us 90% of our language and culture and opening up those subversive thoughts of calculus etc.

[webtrekker]

Not to mention giving us DEMOCRACY! I mean, what the hell did they think we were going to do with THAT!?

[pilgrim]

it was a gift that we didnt realise how powerful it was and then adopted it and abused it - sic transit gloria mundi -- oh bugga thats some of that foreign stuff.........

[Maggie/915]

So many reasons for us to enjoy being able to travel or emigrate.

Sadly others do not have this privilege and live in danger.

It would be interesting to see where all our ancestors came from , we could be shocked at the distances travelled.

Another point of interest would be to see how many of us have lived outside the UK at some stage in our lives.

[threegee]

[threegee]

So many reasons for us to enjoy being able to travel or emigrate.

Sadly others do not have this privilege and live in danger.

It would be interesting to see where all our ancestors came from , we could be shocked at the distances travelled.

Another point of interest would be to see how many of us have lived outside the UK at some stage in our lives.

 

You are falling into the trap of equating foreign travel and a steady trickle exchange of citizenry with mass economic migration into the domain of another culture.

For centuries our ancestors never saw immigration levels of more than a few hundred people a year.  Even the persecution of Ugandan Asians never saw 60,000 UK immigrants in total over the entire period - and these people were highly industrious, Christian, and didn't ghettoise.  What we are experiencing today has absolutely no precedent in these islands, and it's suicidal for our culture for politicians to pretend that it's just a continuation of past trends.  The figures are now so high that the true extent of economic immigration is now a state secret, and it's going to get worse!

 

The number of us that have lived outside the UK at some stage in our lives has absolutely no bearing on this, just as the number of tourists we see in our cities in Summer is nothing but economically positive, and holds no cultural threat.  Actually, true refugees always harbour the desire to go back home when it becomes possible, and/or when they have accumulated enough wealth; that's what we do too, but that's not what the present influx is about. The present influx is about cultural replacement, not about integration and enrichment. The Islamic leaders have only one goal: total world domination!

 

Hiding your head in the sand and pretending that the situation is otherwise - like large sections of the Labour Party are really good at - only plays into the hands of our own right-wing extremists.  In a democracy it rapidly becomes obvious that those extremists are the only ones who have real-world solutions.  That's what is happening in France, and indeed many other countries, right now.

[Maggie/915]

Whilst these are your sincerely held viewpoints 3g, there are other ways and other viewpoints just as valid.

There are good people who do not fall into the World domination category..

Be careful you are not being fooled by the articles and papers you read.

One could equally say that you are hiding your head in the sand.

The right wing extremists are always going to be around, the ones you support could be said to be in disguise.

A lot could be said about the petition you ask people to sign.

[threegee]

Yes Maggie, and all viewpoints will be equally valid right up to the inevitable day that shariah law is imposed on us all.

I do not support any form of extremism, and if I was out of the screaming leftie stable I'd have to feign offence at your suggestion and sprinkle a few accusations of ..isms and ...phobias around to prove my credentials as a fully paid up idiot and contestant for a Darwin award!  I'm not and I don't, because - unlike your left wing friends - I read more than the commercially failing paper for the brain-dead The Guardian!

One tiny bit of extremism I've just happened on today is a statement that "Christianity faces elimination in its birthplace..." -  by that well known right-wing extremist the Archbishop of Canterbury!  He is of course talking about bloody elimination BY Islam.  A pity it's not done to ask questions of the cleric in church, else some might be tempted to ask the supplementary of how long he thinks this elimination will take in our birthplace!

 

Please do say a lot about the petition, as - unlike the highly censored Guardian comments section - there's no fear of ideas or fear of the truth here.

 

And, here's a question that The Guardian won't tax its reader's brains by posing, but perhaps you could attempt to answer:  Where are all these moderate Muslims you talk about in Muslim countries?  Are they seen crying out for moderation there when people are being stoned to death; having their hands cut off; or are simply being treated like third-class citizens with no human rights?  If all the moderates have come here because of the extremists there, then maybe we should be suggesting that they return to enlighten their Muslim brethren.  (Explanation only for the humourless, PC, left: The last sentence is a joke, but the rest is certainly no joke!) 

 

Here's a very cogent explanation of just WHY we are in the mess we are in.  You'll need to get over the fact that it's published in the right-wing extremist Daily Express though!

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/628960/Elites-impact-of-migration

[mercuryg]

..."and all viewpoints will be equally valid right up to the inevitable day that shariah law is imposed on us all."

 

Could you explain to me, and others, how this is actually going to happen, the imposition of shariah law? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure it would take more than the presence of a few million muslims in the country to make it happen? There would have to be widespread changes in the laws of the land, obviously, which is not something that can be done in an instance. Who needs to pass such a colossal change in the law? And why would they do so? It simply doesn't make sense. Let's consider the figures for a minute: according to the last census, in 2011, almost 60% of the population claimed their religion as Christian; 4.4% were muslims. Around  a quarter claimed no religion, so that leaves 20% other religions - fpur times as many as those who are muslims. Now, don't get me wrong as I am happy for anyone who wants to subscribe to a religion (I don't) but I can honestly asy that 60% of the people I know are NOT Christian, and would reckon that more than 25% are not religious. Indeed. the British Social Attitudes survey of 2015 gained a more honest, of you like, response: almost half were happy to admit to having no religion (with 42% Christian and 8% other religions). So, to cut to the chase, we are clearly not yet over-run with Muslims (even if qwe move the figures forward from 2011).

 

So, how does the above equate to us seeing sharia law imposed? Anyone can see, quote clearly, that there is a long, long way to go before the proclaimed culture in which Great Britain becomes an Islamic state, surely? I surmise you wiill probablyt come back at me with the oft-trotted out 'Britain will have a majority muslim population by 20xx' - line; I leave the figure incomplete as it is purely supposition; run a quick web search and you'll find figures stating igt will happen by 2050, while there are otrher sources explaining why, by that date, the muslim population of the UK is unlikely to top 10%. Each is theoretical - and there are many other suggestions - and based purely on current demographic trends, which we all know change with the times naturally.

 

The problem is that we can't see into the future, so thpse of us who think the 'we'll be a muslim nation soon and have sharia law imposed' simply cannot be accused of burying our heads in the sands; that happens ony when you deny something that is clearly evident - and this is not, by any means other than a bunch of potentially flawed statistics that can be interpreted in more than one way, and are done so to suit the needs of those with clear agendas. Of course, the muslim population will grow, but - despite the, again, oft bandied about birthrate statistics, the 'no religion' and christian population will, also; the only way a muslim majority could be achieved so quickly would be for others to stop reproducing.

 

So, here's the thing; I spent a good half hour looking at population projections from various sources - you can do it too, it's fun, and far more informative than the Daily Mail - and can only conclude that the number of sources claiming the UK will become a muslim nation is outnumbered by those who say it won't; why, then, are we going to be subjected to sharia law?

 

As earlier, such  claim simply makes no actual, factual sense.

[Maggie/915]

I was not going to reply or just say 'whatever' to 3g.

Any reply just gives way to another huge amount of information that could be disputed.

The use of moral outrage and a fear clause just serve to negate debate. ( in my opinion)

3G maybe has a point but as we all know life is not simple.

To keep this thread going highlights the title and in its own way is propaganda .

Whichever paper you read or whichever party you decide to vote for should not cause a problem.

At times this argument had amounted to 'What part of your wrong do you not understand?'

Sadly mercuryg that is the reply I fear you will get to your posting.

[threegee]

You are applying Western democratic values to a system which totally rejects same.  But even in the case of Nazi Germany only a small number of dedicated fanatacists were able to subvert a working democracy, so your supposition that our democracy won't allow a take over is flawed.  A blind eye is being turned to massive postal voting fraud in Muslim areas because that suits our establishment politicians - our democracy is a lot more frail than we are led to believe!  You are also making the mistake of equating Islam with other religions.  It's not any sort of religion we know of, it's a totalitarian way of life and death.

 

The numbers game won't hack it for several reasons.  Most have already been aired here, but the most significant factor is Cameron's suicidal support for Turkey to join the EU.  Other EU countries have seen the danger and won't support him.  Because saner voices have prevailed Turkish entry has been delayed, but it's now an inevitability.  If you doubt the significance of this when combined with the EU principal of free movement, then listen to what is said in that video!

 

Shariah law already is imposed in our country, and permitting that is one of many bungles by our elites.  The fanatics are telling you and Maggie what is going to happen in that video in plain English, what don't you understand about that?  Do you think they are insincere?  Do you think they exaggerate?  Someone please answer the question: where are the moderates in Islamic countries?  The only Islamic countries that display an outward-facing moderacy are the ones that are under strict military control.  In truth I think that's where we are likely heading too.  We've come uncomfortably close to this before, but I think the loony left is going to give the militaristic right the excuse they've never been able to find.

[webtrekker]

 

We've come uncomfortably close to this before,

 

 

Doesn't surprise me the Royals were involved too, in this case Louis the Cake.

 

It does however always surprise me why conspiracy theories are called 'theories' when so many of them have come true, or been very near to the mark.

[Canny lass]

I must just take up a couple of Points here:

 

We " are "falling into the trap of equating foreign travel and a steady trickle Exchange of citizenry with mass economic migration into the domain of Another Culture". Mmm ....

 

For many years I retreated occasionally to the house of a friend in central, mainland Spain. The purpose of the visit was, in part, to enjoy the weather but in the main it was to keep my language skills alive. I stopped several years ago, when it no longer was possible to have a conversation in Spanish with the locals. The house, previosly in the centre of a small, spanish village, is now, though not having moved, smack in the middle of a 95% English speaking, urban development. The houses are owned by Brits, mostly retired. None of them speak Spanish. They don't need to. All shops, restaurants and other businesses are owned and run by Brits. Want a new gas boiler fitted, need a haircut, a mechanic, gardener,Carpenter, joiner, glazier, electrician or taxi - the list is endless? Go to the local club (British, of course), look on the notice board and you'll find lots of these and many others advertising their services AT GREATLY REDUCED RATES. I wonder how they manage that? Meanwhile, all spanish shops and serices have gone out of business. I wonder why?

 

And, it's the same thing in the Canary Islands! In most areas you could be forgiven for thinking that you were in central Newcastle or Edinburgh. I've even been able to spend english Money in some shops in Tenerife! I Think that today we can equate the two, that's to say, foreign travel and a steady trickle Exchange of citizenry and mass economic migration into the domain of Another Culture, quite nicely.

 

NB. This is not to say that Spain, as a whole, has been subject to cultural replacement. it's rather a question of a concentration in small pockets giving the effect of something much bigger - A bit like the muslims and the burka.

 

Apologies for all the capital letters. as of today I just can't be bothered to replace them all.

[Canny lass]

Point 2:

HELLO! WAKE UP!

Our ancestors were immigrants! What about the Romans, the Jutes, the Angles and the Saxons? The UK is, and Always has been, a multi cultural society and it has, until recently, been very good at integrating Groups of foreign origin. Did you know for example that the Word racial wasn't to be found in the English vocabulary until the mid 19th Century? I've said it Before and I'll say it again, the English language reflects history better than any other media.

 

These people may not have arrived in any great number, compared with today, but then again, the means of transport were fewer and they didn't get so many people into a boat in those Days! They may also have come with a 'take over' in mind, just as is being suggested of the present wave of immigrants,but they did not succeed. Britain is still Britain. Brits are still British. We didn't become Romans, Angles, Jutes or Saxons. THEY became BRITISH!

 

3g, you take up the Uganda Asians. This interesting Group of immigrants is - precisely as you Point out - "industrious, Christian and didn't ghettoise" (Lovely construction BTW). Industrious I can personally vouch for, having worked with many. Christian? Yes indeed, they were workers from British colonies carrying all that was a) expected of them and all that was forced upon them by their lords and masters in their baggage. They certainly didn't 'ghettoise'. How could they? They were themselves 'ghettoised' being on the receiving end of the stick, as it were. Ghettos are unavoidable when all that's left to offer are vacant, substandard housing in run down areas. Unfortunately, when so many arrive at the same time, it's very often all that's left, as was the situation at that time, but it's better than living in a war zone,

 

Of course, much depends on how you interpret the Word 'ghetto. It has many meanings including Everything from the oroginal, Italian getto, meaning 'foundry' (because of the first Jewish ghetto established on the site of an old foundry in Venice) through the also Italian borghetto - diminutive of borgo meaning 'borough', to the present day meaning " a part of a city, especially a slum area, (but not necessarily) occupied by a minority Group.

 

As was rightly said, they were not 60 000 in number, only a mere 30 000, but didn't WE do well to make such a su´ccess of this Group! If my memory serves me right then it wasn't all plain sailing. Who remembers the National Front with all their Marches, protests and scaremongering throughout the 1970s? Or Enoch Powell and his River of blood speech? It was first when Britain began to see these people as a resource that it started to go well for Commonwealth immigrants. Before that they were 'ghettoised, or segregated as I prefer to call it.

 

And, guess what, it was the same thing with the so-called 'boat-people' from Vietnam in the 1980s, so what's to say it can't happen again with the present wave of people seeking help in Britain? We Brits are fantastic at rallying around when help is needed, well, most of us are.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Canny lass

[Canny lass]

Point 3:

"The present influx is about cultural replacement, not about integration and enrichment ... The Islamic leaders have only got one goal: total World domination"

So many people rabbit on about this so-called cultural replacement! Give me just ONE example of how any aspect of British Culture has been replaced by the present, or for that matter any, Group of immigrants. Don't bore me with the usual rubbish about burkas and religion. I've already demonstrated to you that they, as well as all other Brits, have every right in accordance with both British law and constitution to choose their own clothing and religion. As for the Islamic leaders goal of "total World domination", it's the same as with the "overbreeding - there simply aren't enough of them! They are 11 in number - the 12th not having appeared yet. They've been waiting for centuries! Furthermore,  It is being assumed here that every practitioner of a religion follows their leader's 'advice' regarding the doctrine involved. They do not! Contraception, and even abortion, are practiced among some catholics. What's to say that muslims agree with everthing their leader says?

Edited December 27, 2015 by Canny lass

[Canny lass]

Point 4:

"true refugees Always harbour a desire to go back home when it becomes possible and/or when they have accumulated enough wealth"

 

It is being suggested  - no, stated - here that a refugee is a "true refugee" only if he/she "harbours a desire to go back home" Nonsense!

None of these people WANT to leave their homeland. None of these people WANT to leave their family. None of these people WANT to be a refugee. All they WANT is for themselves and their Children to not be forced to be any part of war, religious struggle, abject poverty or any of the other atrocities prevailing in their country. The only way to achieve that is to leave.

 

In the case of the Syrians, at least those I've taken the time to listen to, they also have a desire to return to Syria when that's possible (making them "true refugees" if I've understood your meaning). However, they are also realistic. They don't Think that possibility is going to present itself in the forseeable future - and quite frankly neither do I.

 

This may come as a surprise to some, but all hope of returning does not vanish on becoming a British Citizen. The possibility of returning to their homeland is not eradicated by obtaining British citizenship. So, just because they apply for British citizenship does not mean that they don't long to return to their homeland. However, while waiting for any possibility to return, they become integrated (hopefully), their Children, some of them born in Britain, grow up and become just as British as The British themselves.Their family in the homeland are long since dead (it was the older generation who remained there) and the desire they once harboured to return fades with the passing of time. I'm no refugee but even we non refugees long for home and I can openly admit that I don't long for home nearly as often as I did 20 years ago. I've made this my home but It doesn't take away my love for my homeland. That is not a crime!