An EU What!!!

[mercuryg]

"There's a standing joke on the stock market that runs down the generations: wet-behind-the-ears people who claim this time it will all be different!"

And it is different. Surely you, a clearly intelligent man, can see that the world - and indeed Europe - is a vastly different place, especially politically, to that it was then? I'm not sure, either, why Russia and Putin would want to go to war?

 

 

[threegee]

There's more than intelligence, there's wisdom and experience. Corbyn is intelligent, and so is Cameron, but they are both total fools!  Corbyn believes in a NWO, and Cameron thinks Corbyn a fool who's naivety can be exploited; on this point Cameron is right, but he is blind to his own folly and inexperience.  There is very good reason why we've always had older leaders, and in our fashion for modernity and change we've totally thrown the baby out with the bath water.  It's not as if we don't have some excellent statesmen still, it's just that we've unlearned that listening to them is the rational and natural thing to do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that you take a liberal-leftist view which takes everything at face value.  This is what our no-world-experience teachers teach to our children, and so don't properly equip them for life and nature as it really is. Life is multi-faceted and layered; you have to peel back the layers to get a glimpse of the inner truth.

Back on topic: I'm not saying that there is any self-awareness or evil intent on behalf of the German people, far from it!  But Germans are easily led,and the very same natural forces are still at work. I don't pretend to be able to understand those forces, but the evidence is all there, and to ignore it because it doesn't fit in with a grossly over-simplistic and blinkered view of the world is to adopt a religious mindset.  Lord Owen now thinks that the aggression being shown by the German-led EU towards Putin's Russia is dangerous, and he's by no means alone in this belief.  He's a wise and experienced man and deserves to be listened to carefully.  He was foreign secretary in Callaghan's government in 1977-9, if you can remember that - a supreme example of mistiming!

It would be hard to dream up a more desperate state of world affairs than we have today, but this present generation of "world leaders" has managed to get us to it.  They now want us to believe that the solutions to the problems they have created is more of the same.  More money-printing; more government interference in people's lives; more regulation; more involvement in other nation's affairs;  more politicians; more "influence" (for them); more "integration"; more EU, etc!  Well, in country after country the populace isn't buying it any longer!  Google on "juncker european values", study some of what this throws up,  and then tell me that you think we should follow Juncker's path. If you can do that then you've got a bad case of EU religiosity, and the cure will only come through hard experience. You can put "intelligence" on a back burner until then, because the only qualification there available is a Darwin Award! 

[mercuryg]

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that you take a liberal-leftist view which takes everything at face value."

You are wrong. I take the view that one should always consider all angles of a situation, a story, whatever we are dealing with. I take the view that picking and choosing the factors in a situation that inspire an individuals personal views is the wrong way to go. I don't hold the view that one particular political school of thinking is right or wrong, simply because it can't be. Nobody can, after all, get everything right. I follow politics and world affairs as you do, but rather than taking on board only some of what is being said/done/overlooked, I take the trouble to look at things from as many possible scenarios as I can (time, of course, permitting). This is why, for one thing, I can see no real reason why Putin would go to war; it simply makes no sense, and is scaremongering at its worst. It's the same reason I know - note, Know, not believe - that, contrary to the insistence of many, the UK is not going to become a muslim state. I could go on and suggest many other popular scenarios and terrible future developments that are regularly put forward in the popular press that are quite simply. utter nonsense, but I think you get the picture. Face value is, in many situations, actually a sensible measure; plenty of what we take to be complex and convoluted in life is, in fact actually black and white, and sometimes, simplifying a conundrum is the best way to assess it. Not in every scenario, of course, but in many. In truth, also, children should be taught to be liberal in their thoughts; any other option is indoctrination, and does not allow them to make up their own minds - as you and I have had the opportunity to do - in later life. Finally, I was talking about your intelligence, not that of the various world leaders! I posit you likely exceed many of them in that area.

 

You are wrong

[threegee]

3 hours ago, mercuryg said:

...This is why, for one thing, I can see no real reason why Putin would go to war; it simply makes no sense, and is scaremongering at its worst. It's the same reason I know - note, Know, not believe - that, contrary to the insistence of many, the UK is not going to become a muslim state. I could go on and suggest many other popular scenarios and terrible future developments that are regularly put forward in the popular press that are quite simply. utter nonsense, but I think you get the picture.

But Putin has already gone to war by proxy! He has annexed huge areas of the Ukraine and the Crimea. Of course he's no direct threat to us, which is exactly what I've been saying for months.  The danger is being dragged into a conflict with him which is not of his or our making.  There's many historical precedents for our being dragged into other people's conflicts, not the least of these being WWII.  You accuse me of ignoring the other side of the issue, yet that's exactly what you are doing about Junker's frequent pronouncement; yes, I think you CAN take those at face value - if you choose to "look at things"!

Quote

Face value is, in many situations, actually a sensible measure; plenty of what we take to be complex and convoluted in life is, in fact actually black and white, and sometimes, simplifying a conundrum is the best way to assess it. Not in every scenario, of course, but in many. In truth, also, children should be taught to be liberal in their thoughts; any other option is indoctrination, and does not allow them to make up their own minds - as you and I have had the opportunity to do - in later life. Finally, I was talking about your intelligence, not that of the various world leaders! I posit you likely exceed many of them in that area.

I'm glad that you can see Black and White so clearly, as many of us do appreciate the many shades of grey.  Therein lies the self-contradiction in your case: You profess to look at all sides of an argument, yet you assert that things are best seen in Black and White terms!  Things can generally only be seen in B&W terms if you take a sided view and ignore the contradictions; the "unforeseen" consequences; and (in Leftist thought) adopt an the end justifies the means approach. I have no problem with "liberal", but you've neatly dropped the "leftist-" from what I said!

Back in the real world our children are generally being taught by leftist-liberals (and in some cases Marxists) - I had some of that even in private school until I stood up to it in class!  It's that truism that those who can't do teach.  Thank you for the back handed compliment.

[mercuryg]

I said SOME things can be looked at in black and white terms; not all. I'm right, too. It doesn't pay to over complicate everything; much of life is quite simple. When the outcome is obvious- black or white - what's the point in prolonging the issue? This leaves us more time to sort the issues that need more attention. You stood up to Marxists teaching you? Good for you. What if they had been fascists teaching you?

[threegee]

Quote

..first step towards an EU army is supported by Germany and other countries, The Times reports.

In 2011, similar proposals were vetoed by Britain, although there were concerns that a loophole could allow nine states to group together to bypass opponents.

In an effort to avoid derailing the Prime Minister’s Remain campaign, the policy plans will not be sent to national governments until the day after Britons vote.

Until then, only a small group of EU political and security committee ambassadors, who must leave their electronic devices outside a sealed room, can read the proposal.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/plans-to-create-an-eu-army-kept-secret-from-voters/

It's right there in yesterday's passionately Remain-supporting EU-friendly Times people; what, exactly, do the deniers not understand?