Brexit : Why TTIP matters

[webtrekker]

 

[Canny lass]

How can he/she talk about things being done in secrecy while wearing a mask himself?

[webtrekker]

I don't think that's relevant Canny Lass. It's because of the state the world is in that people need to keep their identities secret. However, governments and the EU should be transparent, particularly when it directly involves the lives of so many people. If you take the trouble to actually watch the video you will understand why TTIP is such an issue.

[Canny lass]

Sorry Webtrekker! it wasn't a comment on the content, more on the presentation of it. I did in fact watch the video (how else would I know that he was telling us about secrecy)?

Until I watched that video I thought TTIP was something PG put into small packets for me to pour boiling water on.

[webtrekker]

Well, no worries Canny Lass. The main point is that TTIP plays an absolutely crucial part in whether we decide to vote to Leave or Remain, and yet there are no discussions of it in the mainstream media. EVERYONE should know the ramifications of TTIP before making a meaningful vote. As stated in the video, just the fact that TTIP is top secret, even to governments, and that it is a criminal offence to distribute any of the text contained in the TTIP documents should prove, in no uncertain terms, that something is very, very, wrong here.

[webtrekker]

Download the leaked TTIP documents released by Greenpeace here - https://ttip-leaks.org/

A good site providing a summary of what TTIP holds in store for us all based on the leaked information - https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/thomas-fazi/ttip-we-were-right-all-along

Edited May 30, 2016 by webtrekker

[threegee]

22 hours ago, Canny lass said:

How can he/she talk about things being done in secrecy while wearing a mask himself?

Everything which affects our lives today is done from behind a mask.  Now you know the what of TTIP learn about the why:

 

[webtrekker]

I watched about 1/3 of that video 3g. I got the gist of it but, to be honest, apart from not having 1hr 25mins to spare, I also got sick of hearing all the smug b******s talking! People like this, whatever their nationality, grate on me big time.

It's time we had a true democracy, where everyone votes on everything, simply by clicking on the net, pressing the red button on Sky, or picking the phone up. Do away with ALL bureaucrats, forever.

[threegee]

Yes, it's goes on a bit; I watched it when half asleep in the early hours one night.  I think its politics are well to the left, but you can't fault the general message. Paxo's recent one on the BBC delivered the same sort of message through his traditionalist Tory glasses. Hilarious to hear the squeals of bias about it from the Guardinistas!

Everyone vote on everything was my take when I was at school, but it won't work because then the process is open to small militant groups hijacking decisions through the general boredom that will prevail after a while.  You've only got to look at how Corbyn got elected: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/20/labour-membership-jeremy-corbyn-purge  With the internet those sorts of things are now much easier to organise, and never rule out the ingenuity of the opposition. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11680016/Why-Tories-should-join-Labour-and-back-Jeremy-Corbyn.html

So, I don't think there is a real alternative to some form of representative democracy, but without the right of recall the ruling classes are always going to have the upper hand, and are going to fight right of recall proposals all the way.  Like most things in life it's getting the balance just right.  Carswell's ideas certainly deserve a listen here.

I think the really important thing is where policy comes from.  There's only one party where it comes directly from the members, but power corrupts and it's essential that Ukip members firmly lock this down.  The ultimate in anti-democracy is of course the EU, where no one really knows where policy comes from - the take-home message of that film (except they explicitly indicate it really comes from international capital, and aren't too wrong!).

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

Do we vote for what benefits the nation or what benefits our self?

So if one party says -  'vote on our side' we should vote on their side but if the other party says - 'no they are wrong' we should vote for the other party.

If the other party then counters the argument to vote for the other party should we vote for the alternative?

If there isn't an alternative then do we hire a white campaign bus and convince the undecided to surrender?

If all the old codgers at the club are content with their final lot and the only time this referendum comes up is when when one old codger says  - 'ee uu lot, wi divin't want a discussion in here aboot referendun. When your postal votes arrive, dig oot that lucky coin and decide - heads for one party and tails for the other. Spin the coin, decision made.  

I'm singing and dancing in the rain, doo be do do, do be doobe dodo,   doo be do do, do be doobe dodo,  doo be do do, do be doobe dodo,  .................. 

[Maggie/915]

Well said Eggy

[webtrekker]

Don't know about 'decision made' Eggy.

There's a tiny probability, though entirely possible, that the coin will land on its edge!

[Canny lass]

Surely it must depend on which coin it is - one euro or one pound! There is also a chance that their pockets are empty if they're sitting in the club all day. (Saving the red ink for Christmas).

[threegee]

3 hours ago, Eggy1948 said:

Do we vote for what benefits the nation or what benefits our self?...

Do the electorate even know what will benefit the nation, and what will benefit themselves?  Right wingers would tend to say that they are one and the same thing (they mostly believe in enlightened self-interest).

The referendum is simple:

Remain isn't really Remain, it's further and deeper before you even know it.  As just about everyone on both sides agrees that  the EU doesn't work well, then logically even more of the same can only be worse.

Leave just wants you and your descendants to continue to have a real vote, and not a pretend vote for a pretend parliament.

Anyone voting "Remain" has to believe the politician's promises that:

 

[threegee]

2 hours ago, Canny lass said:

Surely it must depend on which coin it is - one euro or one pound!

...or a US Nickel:

Quote

Extrapolations based on the model suggest that the probability of an American nickel landing on edge is approximately 1 in 6000 tosses.

 

The physicists/mathematicians seem to believe that the surface is very important to the model, and so is the energy with which it is thrown (more bounces give a much higher probability).  So... I sure wouldn't bet on that figure! 

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

I did forget to add - all CIU members are well up with aware of the remote possibility of the coin landing on it's edge and that was to be covered by the - DON'T VOTE - plan.       We, the old codgers, were aware that the 1993 revised study of the 'American Nickel dropping' giving the odds of 1 in 6,000 of a coin dropped with randomized initial conditions from a height onto a flat surface did not take into account that the majority of club tables were not level - 9 out of 10 have a crude attempt at equilibrium by the multiple folding of a beer mat that is wedged under one leg of said tables. 

I must apologise to my readers for misleading this debate and I will arrange a referendum to determine what affect this had.

10 hours ago, threegee said:

Do the electorate even know what will benefit the nation, and what will benefit themselves?  Right wingers would tend to say that they are one and the same thing (they mostly believe in enlightened self-interest).

That was my point 3g. Just like many arguments and counter arguments are posted on this site, why should Joe public, or CIU man, have any idea what will benefit individuals or the nation.

I will stick to tossing my coin (and read into that whatever you want).

ie  ( and that one follows nothin!) subject closed, for me.     

[webtrekker]

Quote

I will stick to tossing my coin (and read into that whatever you want).

 

I think I'll join the Tossers too Eggy!  The plain fact is: Leave or Remain, TTIP will still be forced upon us because corporations, not governments, rule the world.

The ONLY way Joe & Joanne Public will be any better off is if the 99% rise up against the 1% GLOBALLY.

[threegee]

4 hours ago, Eggy1948 said:

...We, the old codgers, were aware that the 1993 revised study of the 'American Nickel dropping' giving the odds of 1 in 6,000 of a coin dropped with randomized initial conditions from a height onto a flat surface did not take into account that the majority of club tables were not level - 9 out of 10 have a crude attempt at equilibrium by the multiple folding of a beer mat that is wedged under one leg of said tables....

Yes, yes, but have you reviewed that (EU funded) research report into how the odds correlate with beer residue thickness.  That "accidental" spillage could easily be a cynical plot to massively shift the odds, and so end democracy as we know it.

Quote

Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty --Thomas Paine

 

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

Subject reopened, for me.

Postal vote arrived and landed flat, heads up, Kardean flooring, installed by Michael Metcalf contractors.

Post Immediately opened; vote/cross placed on the ballot paper; ballot paper folded and inserted into envelope A and envelope A sealed; postal voting statement completed with my date of birth and signature; completed postal voting statement and envelope A, with ballot paper inside, slipped comfortably into envelope B and envelope B sealed.

Passed envelope B to wife, to post along with hers.

J. P. Morgan staff feel more secure.

Final closure (and not an 'i', immediately, before 'e' in this posting)