The Trade without the Oppression (a very important read before you vote)

[threegee]

I raised the likely resurgence of EFTA on another thread, but our Scandinavian buddies are certainly thinking along the same lines.  And why shouldn't they - they've been trying to hold out against German domination of Europe for decades, and waiting for the economic power of the UK to set a lead.  It's now or never!

Quote

Swedish MEP Peter Lundgren said Denmark and Sweden were already “on the brink” of quitting, suggesting that should the UK leave, a “Nordic trading bloc” led by Britain could be born. Sweden has been sticking by its EU commitments, but barely. It’s little wonder. Sweden now has the highest level of non-EU immigration per capita. 

And while newcomers are extended free health care and a five-euro flat fee for dental care, the elderly have seen their state pensions cut and must still pay 400 euros for a new tooth. State-sponsored polls reveal a small majority for staying in the EU. Ask Swedes what they would do if Britain left, however, and it’s a different story.

In April a poll by TNS Sifo, Sweden’s biggest polling company, found more people in favour of leaving than remaining if Britain voted for Brexit. Mr Lundgren said: “I think Sweden may fall. The Netherlands has also threatened a referendum if Brexit happens. Denmark will also go for a referendum and so will the Czech Republic. 

“Britain has always been there for Europe. You made huge sacrifices to save us from Nazi dictatorship. 

“The British have a very strong sense of freedom and Brussels has messed with that. That’s the biggest lesson that will come out of a Brexit.”

Please read the full article here: http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/681210/Brussels-fatcats-not-laughing-anymore-special-report-Marco-Giannangeli

A genuine free trade area will be over the dead bodies of Merkel and Hollande, and snake-oil -salesman Cameron, and all their cohort of control freaks - but... if that's how it has to be!

That there is a sane alternative to the EU is something the Remanians never want to discuss, because it's far too close to what we all voted for in 1975 for their comfort.  In fact the EU has tried to stifle and kill off the European Free Trade Area (EFTA) but it has bravely held out. The Leave campaign isn't the government so can't set out exactly what will happen, so the Remain campaign cynically uses this to sow fear, doubt and uncertainty, and conceal the alternatives to something that it admits is deeply flawed.  The fact is that the UK and ALL our European friends will rise to the opportunity presented by Brexit and build a better Europe; don't let Europe down by being fooled into believing in a status quo which simply isn't on offer.

A Leave vote is a freedom vote - not just for the UK but for the whole of Europe (including the oppressed Greeks where another round of punishment is being lined up for after our referendum).

A Remain vote is essentially anti-European, anti-democratic, and the dumbest vote you will ever cast in your entire life!

[Canny lass]

1 hour ago, threegee said:

the elderly have seen their state pensions cut and must still pay 400 euros for a new tooth.

My state pension hasn't been cut (it's better than the one I get from Britain) and neither has my old man's and the price of dental work has long been a bone of contention in Sweden. My last check-up, no work required other than the customary scrape and polish included in the price, was just under 100 GBP. Because of these prices, many Swedes prefer to travel to Poland or Estland for dental treatment. Even so, I think 400 euros for ONE new tooth may be a figure taken out of the blue. You can get a full set of dentures for that as they are heavily subsidised by the government.

 

The rest I can't comment on. It doesn't seem to have made the news here.

[threegee]

I notice you skipped over the important bit about mass immigration, and the reason for mentioning dental care in the first instance. 

Could it be that TT suffers from a bit of establishment pressure that colours its output?  Try RT instead!

Interestingly Five Star has just won the mayorship of Rome with a rather attractive young lady candidate (well.. this is Italy), and EU puppet PM Mario Renzi is on the run. Except... that Renzi himself has been making disturbing (to Brussels) noises of late, and their undemocratic placeman may yet turn on his masters.  That Italy will drop out of the Euro is inevitable, but the previously unthinkable now seems a possibility: that Italy will quit both the Euro and the EU.

For those that don't know: Five Star is the Italian approximate equivalent of Ukip, and votes with Ukip and many other smaller parties in the European Parliament as the Europe of Freedom and Democracy group.  At the last general election it polled a massive 25% of the national vote, cutting right through traditional party loyalties; it's still on the rise as this latest result (67% of the Rome vote) illustrates.

Quote

Mario Calabresi, the editor of Italy's prominent La Repubblica daily, said in an editorial Saturday that the polls were "destined to leave a mark on Italian politics and a possible rupture with the established system".

He said the party for many was "associated with hope."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/19/rome-set-to-elect-first-female-mayor/

 

[Canny lass]

30 minutes ago, threegee said:

I notice you skipped over the important bit about mass immigration, and the reason for mentioning dental care in the first instance. 

I didn't skip over anything. I took up the one point I feel qualified, as an OAP, to take up - my state pension and my dental care as such. We are having no problems with dental care in this area, yet we are one of the areas with most refugees. My hubby needed emergency treatment a couple of weeks ago and was seen within an hour. Doesn't exactly sound as though there are queues a mile long preventing people getting an appointment. Refugees are not seeking dental care (they don't know where to and if they did they can't speak the language). All refugees are given a full medical on arrival and it is the Swedish authourities who decide what needs to be treated and what not. 

 

7 hours ago, threegee said:

Swedish MEP Peter Lundgren said Denmark and Sweden were already “on the brink” of quitting

For those who don't know, Peter Lundgren is an MP for Sverigedemokraterna (Swedens Democrats) - the Swedish approximate equivalent of Ukip. It's always good to know whose side the speaker is on don't you think?

[threegee]

4 hours ago, Canny lass said:

 

For those who don't know, Peter Lundgren is an MP for Sverigedemokraterna (Swedens Democrats) - the Swedish approximate equivalent of Ukip. It's always good to know whose side the speaker is on don't you think?

Side?!  Surely the country where everyone stands in a circle, holds hands, gazes at the midnight sun, and imagines a better world (one where less than 25% of indigenous females will suffer a rape)?

Seems those authorities do a lot of other thinking and deciding for common people too.  But, maybe not quite as much as they did a short while ago.

The Swedish Democrats, a relatively new party:
2010 - 5.7% winning 20 seats
2014 - 12.9% winning 49 seats
(And it seems knocking on for 25% in some areas; possibly the areas where old people do have to queue to pay their €400 whist the uninvited immigrants get free treatment, and free everything else.)
2018 - ??

Isn't PR a wonderful thing Mr Cameron?

Though, I have to report that in this other outpost of the Fourth Reich we have no waiting problems either.  I went for a filling last week, and there was no one else in the spotless waiting room - there pretty much never ever is.  You hardly need to make an appointment as you could ring up and ask to be seen straight away.  The treatment is magnificent (dentist is a local politico, so you can have your other little local difficulties sorted whilst in the chair - Italy is SO efficient!). Not one but two pretty dental assistants do all the non-drilly things.  Why is this so in a municipality with 40,000 people, and not all that many dentists?  Simple: few locals can manage the €80 (up from €70 last year) because there's mass unemployment.  That's due to Germany ordering that the nation struggles on with a currency that is at least 30% overvalued, and getting ever more out of kilter by the month.

The EU solution to this: you are being too profligate, stop eating!  Meanwhile we will loan you even more money (on our dictatorial terms) to increase the existing huge debt burden that you will never be able to repay anyway.  And, if you won't accept the money and decide to break free of our debt trap we will remove any elected politician who makes that decision, and replace him with someone who will do exactly as we instruct.

What do our (illegal) immigrants do for dental treatment?  For some reason I've never though to ask one, but I'm primed to do this now.  I suspect that they will laugh and point to northern Europe.  Maybe I really shouldn't hand out any more bars of chocolate - though a tube of toothpaste and a toothbrush might not be as acceptable.

[threegee]

P.S.  You know your "they can't speak the language" bit above?  I was wondering what I'd do if I got to a bit of the promised land and found out they spoke a funny entirely non-English language, and also found out that it was colder than I could ever have imagined.  Boy, I'd be upset!  I could be sooo upset I might turn a bit antisocial and go out and... no... no... unthinkable!

I think what I'd do is try to find another bit of promised land that spoke universal English and that was maybe a tad or two warmer.  It would help a lot if it had a generous social security system like cold place promised land, and if they aspired to having the highest minimum wage in the world, and had a much bigger economy, and a global outlook... well...wow, it would be like the streets were paved with gold there.  So.. once I got all my promised land documentation (and my free €400 dental treatment), and picked up the other goodie bags from cold place promised land (and had been terribly careful NOT to rape any of the gorgeous cold place promised land women),  I'd be setting out for that other bit of the promised land, no matter how many millions of immigrants in all the other parts of promised land had had exactly the same idea as me.  You know, if I lost any time it could be that the universal English speaking bit of promised land realised that it was about to be entirely overrun, and actually did something about the utterly crazy open borders idea.

Important note: In the above story any resemblance between the fictitious nations mentioned, and real nations - both living and having committed auto-genocide - is entirely coincidental.

[Canny lass]

7 hours ago, threegee said:

Surely the country where everyone stands in a circle, holds hands, gazes at the midnight sun, and imagines a better world (one where less than 25% of indigenous females will suffer a rape)?

There you go with your Boolean logic again.

"EVERYONE stands i a circle". I've lived here 30 years and never seen ANYONE stand in a circle. The children dance in a circle at Midsummer celebrations but that's the nearest thing I've seen to standing in a circle.

"EVERYONE" ..."gazes at themidnight sun" How many people do you think live north of the polar circle in Sweden? That's the only place the midnight sun can be seen and it is the most thinly populated area of Sweden.

"EVERYONE" ... "holds hands". At one time or another in their lives, I'm sure that MOST people in Sweden hold hands with someone else. Not at the same time however and definitely not in a circle while looking at the midnight sun.

"EVERYONE" ... "imagines a better world". Better being a relative description, of anything, it's hard to know just what you are imagining here. Everything is relative 3g, everything is relative.

A world "(one where less than 25% of indigenous females will suffer rape)". Put your money where your mouth is. Show me official figures for any country in the world where 25% of the indigenous, female population has suffered a rape. I'd very much like to discuss these figures with you. If you wish, I can start by requesting official figures from the scandinavian countries and from England.

[Canny lass]

7 hours ago, threegee said:

the areas where old people do have to queue to pay their €400

Again, put your money where your mouth is. Which areas are you referring to?

I've made a few enquiries as to the €400 tooth. Nearest thing I can come up with is a titanium implant. These are not subsidised and if you think any refugees are getting these you are sadly mistaken. Many non-refugees (Swedes) take a holiday in Poland or Estonia and have the work done there. 

[Canny lass]

5 hours ago, threegee said:

P.S.  You know your "they can't speak the language" bit above?  I was wondering what I'd do if I got to a bit of the promised land and found out they spoke a funny entirely non-English language, and also found out that it was colder than I could ever have imagined.  Boy, I'd be upset!  I could be sooo upset I might turn a bit antisocial and go out and... no... no... unthinkable!

I think what I'd do is try to find another bit of promised land that spoke universal English and that was maybe a tad or two warmer.  It would help a lot if it had a generous social security system like cold place promised land, and if they aspired to having the highest minimum wage in the world, and had a much bigger economy, and a global outlook... well...wow, it would be like the streets were paved with gold there.  So.. once I got all my promised land documentation (and my free €400 dental treatment), and picked up the other goodie bags from cold place promised land (and had been terribly careful NOT to rape any of the gorgeous cold place promised land women),  I'd be setting out for that other bit of the promised land, no matter how many millions of immigrants in all the other parts of promised land had had exactly the same idea as me.  You know, if I lost any time it could be that the universal English speaking bit of promised land realised that it was about to be entirely overrun, and actually did something about the utterly crazy open borders idea.

Important note: In the above story any resemblance between the fictitious nations mentioned, and real nations - both living and having committed auto-genocide - is entirely coincidental.

Just because you don't like the cold does not mean that everybody has to dislike it. Here in Sweden, we have a saying - There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing - If you don't have the right clothing you stay indoors. Likewise, just because you would be so upset about the weather that you would  'turn' a bit antisocial and you  would go out and rape someone (that is what you're suggesting, isn't it?), doesn't mean that everybody would do the same thing.

Really, 3g, there are perfectly good medicines available today. Why are you allowing yourself to suffer?

[Christopher Doyle]

3 hours ago, Canny lass said:

Really, 3g, there are perfectly good medicines available today. Why are you allowing yourself to suffer?

I gotta say, I was bored to tears reading through this till that little gem turned up.

[Canny lass]

His bark is worse than his bite really. Try thinking of him as a cute cuddly teddy bear. It usually takes the edge off.

[threegee]

5 hours ago, Canny lass said:

Just because you don't like the cold does not mean that everybody has to dislike it. Here in Sweden, we have a saying - There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing - If you don't have the right clothing you stay indoors. Likewise, just because you would be so upset about the weather that you would  'turn' a bit antisocial and you  would go out and rape someone (that is what you're suggesting, isn't it?), doesn't mean that everybody would do the same thing.

Really, 3g, there are perfectly good medicines available today. Why are you allowing yourself to suffer?

It there a medicine to treat an entire national epidemic of denial-of-the-stark-facts?  I took as my source that thoroughly right-wing reactionary publication The Guardian.  Because all the very many other sources would have suffered an immediate ad hominem credibility attack.

Refugees refusing to leave bus in 'too cold' Swedish village to be removed

Refugees should be in quotes of course, but the Guardian has to be allowed their delusions too.

Once again the main point has been ducked, and the entire focus is on a secondary issue - that's one of the symptoms of the disease!  And, I actually didn't say the weather was bad - that reflects your thought process, not mine.

And, as for those rape statistics: please tell me why I can't find any that post-date 2011?  Are you telling me that if they'd even levelled-off they wouldn't have been published right away?  And no, I'm not for one minute suggesting everyone would "do the same thing"; everyone doesn't come from a culture where women are second class citizens, to be treated as bagged-up chattels.

[Canny lass]

7 minutes ago, threegee said:

It there a medicine to treat an entire national epidemic of denial-of-the-stark-facts?

Very much doubt it, otherwise the 'leaves' and the' remains' wouldn't be going at it hammer and tongs as they are just now.

[Canny lass]

8 minutes ago, threegee said:

I took as my source that thoroughly right-wing reactionary publication The Guardian. 

Date of publication please. It's always good to read for oneself.

[Canny lass]

9 minutes ago, threegee said:

Because all the very many other sources would have suffered an immediate ad hominem credibility attack.

Having, at university level, thoroughly researched the use of linguistic and paralinguistic features in newspaper reporting, I'm afraid I no longert have many good words to  say for ANY newspaper - regardless of its political standing or client group. Newspapers write for a specific group of customers and they adjust their text accordingly.  Some newspapers, however, stand out from the crowd. My criticism of them remains. It is in no way ad hominem as it is an objective criticism based on my education and is  in no way personal. I think you are feeling threatened again. This is not my intention. My intention is to try and balance the statements you make with statements made by others. That does not mean that I agree with either one or the other. It simply means that there are two sides to every story. It's not a bad idea, for anybody, to read both sides and decide for themselves.

[Canny lass]

31 minutes ago, threegee said:

Refugees refusing to leave bus in 'too cold' Swedish village to be removed

"The group refusing to get off the bus have complained about being in a forest dozens of kilometres from the nearest town, and many of them have demanded to be taken to a big city, or even to Germany". 

The above quote is taken from the same article and that is exactly how it was reported here. The refugees refused to leave the bus because of the isolated area. The low temperatures were not an issue for them, but for the bus company which feared  the refugees would freeze to death when the engine could no longer be kept running. One story, two differnt sides to it. Which report is correct? I've no idea. It's two reporters adjusting text to cater for the needs of two different groups and ulyimately, of course, to sell newspapers.

[Canny lass]

41 minutes ago, threegee said:

And, I actually didn't say the weather was bad - that reflects your though process, not mine.

No, you didn't. You said the weather was "colder than I could ever have imagined". I used the adage, "there is no bad weather, only bad clothing" to demonstrate a point. Clearly I didn't do it very well. Let me try again.

'Bad' weather need not be cold weather and cold weather need not be bad weather. It all depends on whether or not you are wearing appropriate clothing.

Refugees in Sweden do not need to suffer from weather they are not used to. This is thanks to the generosity of a great many Swedes - those who have managed to retain a humanitarian approach to life - who emptied their wardrobes and who gave appropriate clothing to new arrivals. Until they were outfitted they were advised to stay indoors. Not that advice is necessary, to those who open the door in teperatures of -25 wearing a thin cotton dress or shirt. It's a bit like me going outdoors in +50 in Thailand wearing a fur coat. I've got enough grey cells functioning to tell me to stay indoors or change my clothes.

Everything is relative, 3g, everything is relative.

[Canny lass]

58 minutes ago, threegee said:

And, as for those rape statistics: please tell me why I can't find any that post-date 2011?

 Are you now saying that the 25% of indigenous females who were raped were raped prior to 2011? Strange! You've been arguing for months that instances of rape have rocketed since the last wave of refugees. What is it now? 50%?, 75%?. Are you now telling me that all you've been saying is based on hearsay?

If you would like statistics for England you can contact the Ministry of Justice where your request for information will be handled under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. I've always found them to be very helpful and up to date. When I last contacted them regarding rape statistics, June 2014, they provided me with statistics up to and including March 2014. I know the Scandinavian countries have the same service and a similar law on information.

 

So,my answer to your question must be: You are not trying hard enough OR you are looking in the wrong places!

TIP: newspapers are not reliable sources.

[Canny lass]

1 hour ago, threegee said:

everyone doesn't come from a culture where women are second class citizens, to be treated as bagged-up chattels.

No, they certainly don't! What are YOU doing to try and change that?

[webtrekker]

The two most vocal people in this thread, and many others EU related, have already chosen not to live in the UK. So does that mean the rest of us who DO live here don't give a damn, or are we just do saturated with all the media drivel that we've given up having an opinion?

Edited June 21, 2016 by webtrekker
Typo

[Canny lass]

7 minutes ago, webtrekker said:

does that mean the rest of us who DO live here don't give a damn, or are we just saturated with all the media drivel theat we've given up having an opinion?

You tell me, Webbtrekker!

A staggering 17 members (of well over 1000) have bothered themselves to vote in Eggy's poll!

Edited June 21, 2016 by Canny lass

[Malcolm Robinson]

It just means they are talking to themselves webtrekker.............

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

Lets be Frank about this :-

And now, the end is near; And so I face the final curtain. My friend, I'll say it clear, I'll state my case, of which I'm certain.

I've lived a life that's full. I've traveled each and every highway; And more, much more than this,

I did it my way.

Regrets, I've had a few; But then again, too few to mention. I did what I had to do And saw it through without exemption.

I planned each charted course; Each careful step along the byway, And more, much more than this, I did it my way.

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew When I bit off more than I could chew. But through it all, when there was doubt, 

I ate it up and spit it out. I faced it all and I stood tall; 

And did it my way.

I've loved, I've laughed and cried. I've had my fill; my share of losing. And now, as tears subside, I find it all so amusing.

To think I did all that; And may I say - not in a shy way, "Oh no, oh no not me,

I did it my way".

For what is a man (or a Canny Lass), what has he/she got? If not himself/herself, then he/she has naught. To say the things he/she truly feels; 

And not the words of one who kneels.The record shows I took the blows -

And did it my way! Yes, it was my way.

The poll says - Remain = 2, Brexit = 15

Proffesor Michael Dougan's says (and if the Brexit 15 can't stand to listen to another 24 mins of this Remain or Brexit debate vote then skip to 10mins 40secs and open your minds to the next 20 secs) - do it his way

  

 

[Canny lass]

16 minutes ago, Eggy1948 said:

The poll says - Remain = 2, Brexit = 15

Magnificent turnout, Eggy! Round about the 1% mark, and they didn't even have to get off their backsides to vote! Let's hope it will be better on Thursday and that bad weather lack of appropriate clothing doesn't put a damper on the number going to the polling booth. Friday should be very interesting here! I can hear the excuses for why it went the way it did - regardless of the way it goes - as i write. I'm afraid this thread may have a very long life.

[Canny lass]

10.20 - 10.40 My sentiments exactly!