Coal Mining

[Canny lass]

10 hours ago, Alan Edgar (Eggy1948) said:

Therfore the 1920 £800.00 ambulance motor was approximately 350% less the value of a 2023 amblance

it probably had 350% less equipment on board as well.

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

11 hours ago, Canny lass said:

it probably had 350% less equipment on board as well.

I wonder if they had ambulance transport from the pits in the 50's - 70's after the NHS act was introduced in July 1948 or did the pits just rely on First Aiders in the pit getting the injured to the surface to be collected by the NHS ambulace?

@HIGH PIT WILMA & @James would know

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

On 11/06/2013 at 21:51, Adam Hogg said:

I would say Symptoms they are just before the Coal Industry was Nationalised, 1946 would be my guess because the coal industry was Nationalised on the 1st January 1947 and the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act was passed in 1946 and it say "The mines are to be Nationalised" in the "application form."

Also,Adam,no person under the age of 15 yrs was allowed to work underground after Nationalisation..and here they are recruiting 14 yr olds!!

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

5 hours ago, Alan Edgar (Eggy1948) said:

I wonder if they had ambulance transport from the pits in the 50's - 70's after the NHS act was introduced in July 1948 or did the pits just rely on First Aiders in the pit getting the injured to the surface to be collected by the NHS ambulace?

@HIGH PIT WILMA & @James would know

Alan,from my experiences,going back to 1959,normal injuries like broken legs or arms or other minor injuries,the Blue Coal Board Van took men across to the old Ashington Hospital..[which was originally built by the Miners]..more serious accidents of an urgent nature,men were taken by Ambulance..which was basically just a van with a stretcher and first aid kit..bandages etc..in it!![nae Defibrillators or Cardiogram machines in them days!!]..reet till bates closed..less serious injured men were still taken in the Pit van!!..aav been it a few times owa the years!! Cheers Bill!

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

Just now, HIGH PIT WILMA said:

Alan,from my experiences,going back to 1959,normal injuries like broken legs or arms or other minor injuries,the Blue Coal Board Van took men across to the old Ashington Hospital..[which was originally built by the Miners]..more serious accidents of an urgent nature,men were taken by Ambulance..which was basically just a van with a stretcher and first aid kit..bandages etc..in it!![nae Defibrillators or Cardiogram machines in them days!!]..reet till bates closed..less serious injured men were still taken in the Pit van!!..aav been it a few times owa the years!! Cheers Bill!

As to injured men underground,even fatalities,every man was stretchered out the pit usually by his own Marra's..not necessarily First Aiders like myself..if a man needed Morphia [Morphine],after a serious accident,only a qualified Official [usually the face Deputy],was allowed to administer by injection to the injured person,and only if that person requested it..then whoever administered Morphia,HAD TO...BY LAW..escort the that person to the surface and hand him over to the Ambulance team...after tying a named and dated bracelet to the injured person's wrist. Morphia was kept in securely locked safes built into brickwork in every Deputy's District underground.The Deputy was the ONLY person,other than a Doctor,in any industry in Britain,who was trained and certified by Law,Mines and Quarries Act 1956,to Adminster Morphia by needle injection,when requested by an injured person.That,was the level of responsibility of a Mine Deputy.[UNLESS..a Doctor could reach the injured person within TWO hours..over that time period..the Law would apply..]

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

1 minute ago, HIGH PIT WILMA said:

As to injured men underground,even fatalities,every man was stretchered out the pit usually by his own Marra's..not necessarily First Aiders like myself..if a man needed Morphia [Morphine],after a serious accident,only a qualified Official [usually the face Deputy],was allowed to administer by injection to the injured person,and only if that person requested it..then whoever administered Morphia,HAD TO...BY LAW..escort the that person to the surface and hand him over to the Ambulance team...after tying a named and dated bracelet to the injured person's wrist. Morphia was kept in securely locked safes built into brickwork in every Deputy's District underground.The Deputy was the ONLY person,other than a Doctor,in any industry in Britain,who was trained and certified by Law,Mines and Quarries Act 1956,to Adminster Morphia by needle injection,when requested by an injured person.That,was the level of responsibility of a Mine Deputy.[UNLESS..a Doctor could reach the injured person within TWO hours..over that time period..the Law would apply..]

 

16 minutes ago, HIGH PIT WILMA said:

Alan,from my experiences,going back to 1959,normal injuries like broken legs or arms or other minor injuries,the Blue Coal Board Van took men across to the old Ashington Hospital..[which was originally built by the Miners]..more serious accidents of an urgent nature,men were taken by Ambulance..which was basically just a van with a stretcher and first aid kit..bandages etc..in it!![nae Defibrillators or Cardiogram machines in them days!!]..reet till bates closed..less serious injured men were still taken in the Pit van!!..aav been it a few times owa the years!! Cheers Bill!

Cheers Bill.

 

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

Hope everybody's keeping well,apologies for absences,Hope 2024 is a better year than the last four years!![we keep saying that..!!] Cheers Bill!

[Symptoms]

During WW2 my maternal Grandfather was working a double shift in the middle of the night (to help the war effort) when he was injured underground by a rock fall causing crush injuries to his legs and back.  His mates dug him out, brought him to the surface and stretchered him the mile-and-a-half back to his home.  The doctor was called, meds given and an ambulance was called to take him to hospital in Durham ... he worked at Sherburn Hill Colliery near Durham City.  My Grandmother had to pay the Doctor for the home visit and for the ambulance - it cost her two shilling and six pence.  You had to pay for all this stuff when the pits were privately owned and there was no NHS.  He got plastered-up and was back at work a couple of months later.

[Canny lass]

On 02/12/2023 at 13:48, Alan Edgar (Eggy1948) said:

did the pits just rely on First Aiders in the pit getting the injured to the surface to be collected by the NHS ambulace?

 

21 hours ago, Symptoms said:

My Grandmother had to pay the Doctor for the home visit and for the ambulance

I wonder why a doctor or an ambulance couldn't attend to the injured at the pit? I mean, moving a back injury isn't the most sensible thing to do. Would it perhaps be because the pit would have to pay the 2/6d.

[Symptoms]

Canny - I don't know for sure why he was carried home but my guess would be the pit owners didn't want to fork out;  remember these were the guys who stiffed the miners in the 1920s AND during WW2 when they attempted to reduce wages.  They clearly wanted to pass on the cost to the family. 

My Grandfather returned to work and lasted underground until just after Nationalisation when he had to quit due to getting pneumoconiosis, commonly known as 'black lung disease';  he died of it in 1950.  The NUM (for our younger viewers - The National Union of Mineworkers) in late 1948 fought the newly formed NCB (again, for our younger viewers - The National Coal Board) for compensation and my Grandfather was the first miner in th UK to get a payout from the NCB;  my Mum told me it was £500 (today worth about £22,000).

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

I don't swear,but the mention of the greedy wealthy coal owners makes me want to!

When I was being born,my Mother was in Hospital,[in 1944],my Father collapsed and was taken to Hospital with a burst duodenal ulcer,seriously life threatened,at the same time..SO...because my Father wasn't at work at the pit,the coal owner sent the cowardly bailiffs around to my Mother's house in the middle of the night,when they knew most men would be down the pit in foreshift,so no risk of resistance,and threw [literally]all my mother's few belongings into the street..to house another miner's family who was able to go down the pit. My Mother had a nervous breakdown,and I was taken away from her..till she recovered..well that was the best treatment in the world for depression and a nervous breakdown..keep your newly born child away from you..never knowing if it was alive or not..and Choppington and Bedlington were being bombed at the time..yeah,I could easily swear at those evil greedy b......s..no apologies for getting wound up...

[Canny lass]

@Symptoms @HIGH PIT WILMA

Edited December 10, 2023 by Canny lass

[Canny lass]

Trying to reply to  your posts, Synptoms and HPW, but after entering ypour names I'm unable to write anything else. Nothing is accepted so I'll try a new post instead. 

I read with interest your posts above. What a vivid picture you paint! Horrendous to say the least. It was actually half in jest that I said what I said about the pit not having to pay 2/6 so I wasn't really prepared for your replies. How could the mine owners be so cold and callous? The old phrase 'adding insult to injury' takes on a whole new meaning!

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

Canny Lass,ONLY those who were pitfolks knew the hardships the families of the Miners faced in times of tragedy and distress,AND ,in normal day to day living..When an employer takes Six year old bairns carried on their Father's backs asleep,to work underground from midnight to midday..they HAVE TO BE EVIL..they even employed women,some pregnant,to work underground,and on the Screens on the surface...in the real old days..but even when I was 15 yrs old,in 1959,the NCB Training scheme,had us learning underground,how to attach pit tubs to a moving haulage rope,by lashing a heavy chain round the rope three times..[rope moving at two miles per hour..some 4 mph!!],and then clipping the end of the chain to the middle "Cock-hole" on the tub with a Sheckle and pin..all the time this was happening,we stopped the chain from pulling the tub away till required,by holding our pit boot OVER THE ROPE ON THE GROUND.letting the rope pass under the sole of our boot which was held against the chain to stop it from clicking away prematurely..talk about insane?...no health and safety then..many a kid and adults also,were run over by a loose wire strand on the rope snatching the chain away and tripping the haulage lad onto the ground,the pit tub running over their legs or arms..hard to describe..wish I could find a training film showing how this was done..I had many a near miss ,same as everybody else who had to do it!!Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all!!

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

Just now, HIGH PIT WILMA said:

Canny Lass,ONLY those who were pitfolks knew the hardships the families of the Miners faced in times of tragedy and distress,AND ,in normal day to day living..When an employer takes Six year old bairns carried on their Father's backs asleep,to work underground from midnight to midday..they HAVE TO BE EVIL..they even employed women,some pregnant,to work underground,and on the Screens on the surface...in the real old days..but even when I was 15 yrs old,in 1959,the NCB Training scheme,had us learning underground,how to attach pit tubs to a moving haulage rope,by lashing a heavy chain round the rope three times..[rope moving at two miles per hour..some 4 mph!!],and then clipping the end of the chain to the middle "Cock-hole" on the tub with a Sheckle and pin..all the time this was happening,we stopped the chain from pulling the tub away till required,by holding our pit boot OVER THE ROPE ON THE GROUND.letting the rope pass under the sole of our boot which was held against the chain to stop it from clicking away prematurely..talk about insane?...no health and safety then..many a kid and adults also,were run over by a loose wire strand on the rope snatching the chain away and tripping the haulage lad onto the ground,the pit tub running over their legs or arms..hard to describe..wish I could find a training film showing how this was done..I had many a near miss ,same as everybody else who had to do it!!Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all!!

p.s. Working Man sung by Rita McNeil says it all!![live version!]

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

15 minutes ago, HIGH PIT WILMA said:

p.s. Working Man sung by Rita McNeil says it all!![live version!]

 

[Canny lass]

On 18/12/2023 at 12:44, HIGH PIT WILMA said:

Canny Lass,ONLY those who were pitfolks knew the hardships the families of the Miners faced in times of tragedy and distress,AND ,in normal day to day living..When an employer takes Six year old bairns carried on their Father's backs asleep,to work underground from midnight to midday..they HAVE TO BE EVIL..they even employed women,some pregnant,to work underground,and on the Screens on the surface...in the real old days..but even when I was 15 yrs old,in 1959,the NCB Training scheme,had us learning underground,how to attach pit tubs to a moving haulage rope,by lashing a heavy chain round the rope three times..[rope moving at two miles per hour..some 4 mph!!],and then clipping the end of the chain to the middle "Cock-hole" on the tub with a Sheckle and pin..all the time this was happening,we stopped the chain from pulling the tub away till required,by holding our pit boot OVER THE ROPE ON THE GROUND.letting the rope pass under the sole of our boot which was held against the chain to stop it from clicking away prematurely..talk about insane?...no health and safety then..many a kid and adults also,were run over by a loose wire strand on the rope snatching the chain away and tripping the haulage lad onto the ground,the pit tub running over their legs or arms..hard to describe..wish I could find a training film showing how this was done..I had many a near miss ,same as everybody else who had to do it!!Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all!!

It feels a bit odd to give that horrendous account of pit-life a 'like'. There's nothing 'likeable about the life they had and yet they were a lovely bunch of people. What I 'liked' was you bringing this up to the surface (literally) so that other's may know about it. Thanks HPW!

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

@HIGH PIT WILMA - @James can either of you help :- 

On the Old Photo's of Holywell & Seaton Delaval & Seghill & Hartley,Sluice,W/bay. group a member, Christine Flinn, has asked this question :- ' Can any of the retired miners help - I have just seen my grandma's birthday certificate and it's states her dad was a colliery cartman. Can someone tell me what that job was. Thanks'. I have checked on the Durham Mining museum site but the name 'Cartman' is not on the list of professions/job titles and I can't find anything similar job titles. Lookig at the image Christine posted I am not sure that it is a letter 't' in the job name .

Can anyone on this site help?

[Canny lass]

A cartman was simply a colliery worker who drove a horse and cart either underground or above ground whenever transport was needed for goods, equipment or even workers. From my own experience, I remember 'Tommy the coalman' in Netherton Colliery in the fifties. Miners, then, received an allowance of free coal and my father's allowance was delivered to us, and everybody else in Netherton, by horse & cart driven by Tommy the coalman as he was known to everybody. My father, however, had earlier worked with Tommy underground where Tommy was a cartman. Lung problems forced Tommy to exchange underground work at the colliery for above ground work - still employed by the colliery. Delivering the coal allowance then became a major part of his work. My father never referred to him as Tommy the coalman. To him Tommy was always Tommy the cartman.

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

@Canny lass thankyou

Surrounded by miners on our estate, Coquetdale Place, and made extra pocket money by shovelling or wheelbarrowing and filling two buckets at a time and carrying them to the coal house but know very little terminlogy from the pits.

some response I got from other groups eg Facebook group Friends of Bates Colliery &  Old Photo's of Holywell & Seaton Delaval & Seghill & Hartley,Sluice,W/ba :-

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=261499.msg1472307&fbclid=IwY2xjawFTnkVleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHQ-nj2qUrqQL9BQoFM6Hmpmb5MCaLsilm5YWXdMk9ZuAQuV27piyfJP1JQ_aem_QWyDSDdj3XxM36adauG_UA#msg1472307

 

[Alan Edgar (Eggy1948)]

Forgot to add in my reply above :- 

The first site I checked was the Durham Mining Museum (DMM) and it dose not have 'cartman'.

After I got a response from Bob Boyd referencinng 'putters' I checked the DMM again and it does have 'Putters' & 'Pony Putter' in the Mining Occupations list :- 

 http://www.dmm.org.uk/educate/mineocc.htm

[Canny lass]

I'm not sure I agree that a putter and a cartman ar the same thing. From a purely lexical point of view I believe a putter ’pushed’ tubs. From about the 12th century the word put, meaning to push or shove, was in common use. By the time the 16th century came around its meaning had been extended to include the meanig throw or hurl. It’s obsolete today but lives on to a degree in the highland sport of ’putting the shot’ and in the golfing terms ’put/putter’. Even our everyday word ’put’, meaning to place something in a certain position, has the same roots: Old English putian, Middle English potte.

The word putter is in evidence very often in the early 19th century with the meaning ”one who throws (a stone or heavy weight)” and as early as 1743 for a type of golf club. To me it seems logical to extend its use to one who pushes/shoves coaltubs. Also, I’ve never heard of a coaltub being referred to as a cart. We need HPW on this one!!

[Canny lass]

Just remembered this wonderful site:

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=787374.0

P.S. It would be interesting to know the year that the above birth certificate was issued.

Edited September 15 by Canny lass

[HIGH PIT WILMA]

Hi Folks!.Canny Lass,ye knaa me,not a nitpicker,only for correctness,for the education of the uneducated!!...but miner's coaal was never FREE!!..NOR WERE THE "FREE" houses they lived in!!..They were part of a miner's wage in lieu..and speaking personally,Linton Colliery gave the Miners coal which otherwise would be tipped on the pit heap..more stone bands than coal,also full of "Brass"[!!]..Iron Pyrites..which used to spit out onto the clippy mat and us if we sat too close!!..So!!Putters!!..the pic in my gallery on here,of my Father aged 14 yrs old,with his pony,in 1929,is when he was coal putting to his Marra,the older fella who was a Hewer.My Father putted the tubs out to a landing,where the other putters did the same thing..when there was a set of six tubs or more..the Drivers used to drive the set of tubs to the shaft bottom to be taken to bank.Every pit had it's own terms,but putters was generally the term used either for hand putting,or Pony putting.Hope that clarifies the subject.Never heard the term Cartman anywhere in any of the pits I worked at..[5 in total].

[Canny lass]

Thanks HPW! I knew I could rely on you to come up with the answer! Am I right in understanding that "putting" the tubs could involve either 'pushing' by hand or 'pulling' by horses? I'm asking from a purely linguistic interest in the development of the word 'putting'. I'm wondering if putters might have replaced cartmen doing basically the same work. Tommy the cartman at Netherton was about the same age as my father (born 1900) so he would have been working before 1920. I think my father started working in the pits at 13½.

I must admit that I'd never thought about the coal allowance as being in lieu of wages but it leads me to another question. My father died when I was a teenager but my mother and her children lived on in the colliery house and she received a coal allowance. My older brothers were miners but already married and living elsewhere, though not in miners accommodation. The one brother still at home wasn't a miner.  Was this a common thing - a kind of widow's allowance - that coal miner's widows continued to be provided with coal and housing? I don't know if my mother had to pay rent or not.

Edited September 18 by Canny lass