Canny lass

Maggie, in your eagerness to find and press green buttons, you may perhaps stumble across an enormous example of such by following the link in the first post in Call a Temporary Halt to All Immigration (Chat Central, in case you've missed it). There doesn't seem to be much going on there but perhaps the button presser(s) is also rationed to 13 - 14 presses a day. However, should you by chance stumble across that button, I suggest that you follow the example of the 62 727 104 UK residents who have NOT pressed the button. Just saying.

It's been the same for years, Mercuryg - the supplement I mean! Right up there with the former News of the World in my opinion.

"yes I am! ... we have to go th(o)rough the pretence that this scheme applies to all religious groups. They keep it to themselves." Well, they are clearly not doing a very good job! You, to name just one, seem to know all about it. If these Groups are so closed how are YOU getting all this inside information? " The answer to that final paragraph is that the net needs to spread as wide as possible; that the Groups that you mention also include significant numbers of less extreme Muslims ... and those Groups are the people that most come into Contact with potential radicals" Firstly I would like to Point out that, I am not only 'mentioning' these Groups I am, in fact, quoting the UK Government's publication 2010 - 2015 Government Policy on Counter Terrorism of which the Prevent Project is part. That said, I again have to ask - how do you know this? What is, for example, a 'significant' number? You clearly know the number in order to be able to place this determining adjective Before it. How do you know that it's this Group of extreme radicals that "most come into Contact with potential radicals"? You clearly know who they are, both the extreme and the potentials among them. Where do you get this information? "so did we have a problem with terrorist extremists bent on bringing down our society" ... "before we had a significant adoption of Islamic beliefs in our country"? I deliberately did not cite the "replacement with a theocracy" bit as I've already demonstrated that this is not about to happen. However, I Think you may have misunderstood my comment regarding the proof of the pudding being in the eating. I was referring to the referrals being investigated and having the results to hand but yes, we have dealt with terrorism in the UK Before. Me knowingly, you are not so Young that that you did not live through the IRA terror attacks related to Northern Ireland, and neither are you so old that senility has caused you to forget them. Of course we have had terrorism - solved by dialogue and negotiation if my memory serves me right. I didn't bother to read the link. It's from The New York Times Magazine, for goodness sake! I'd rather chew off my own right leg! Are you serious! A 'Sunday supplement' ( you may as well read 'tabloid') that's been going steadily downhill for many decades. Just googled it to make sure that statement still holds and yep - it appears to. They introduced a 'funny page' a few years ago and it died the Death after a year. They couldn't even get that right and now I read that they've hired the former editor of Oprah Winfrey's Magazine to try and get it afloat again. Oh dear, oh dear! Doesn't appear to be doing the trick though. My rose-coloured spectacles? The nice thing about spectacles is that you can at least see something through them and they can be removed, if wished. The blind, on the other hand, have (someof them) never had the pleasure of seeing and will remain forever blind. And on that note I leave you to enjoy what remains of the year and wish you all the best for 2016 when we can continue our discussion. Hopefully by then you will have managed to answer some of the outstanding questions, which would make the discussion much more interesting.

That much I'd understood, Malcolm, situated as they are over the thread title, but what do they signify? What is it that's being 'rated' and more important where do they come from? Not that it's important if they are about to disappear.

Thank you Malcolm!

Thanks for sharing that bit of news Pilgrim. I'm all for speaking to people. Getting it straight from the horses mouth, so to speak and Maggie, you are so right! The propaganda war is two-sided.

I'm still not getting the grasp of what this 'doh' actually means. Can anybody put me out of my musery here? Sorry about the ruined Xmas, Eggy and WELCOME BACK WILF!!

Thanks Eggy for keeping us updated. Thelma and Lenny I recognise now that I have a name.

"You can't be serious!" I'm being perfectly serious! Everything is relative, 3g, everything is relative. If there are more non-Muslims than Muslims in the UK (which there are) then it stands to reason that the greater majority of referrals may also come from non-Muslims, or are you perhaps suggesting that it's only/mostly Muslims who have any information that would help to "identify individuals and groups at risk of radicalisation from all groups, such as Islamist extremists or the far-right" (my underlining) as the Prevent Project sets out to do? If so, why would they keep it to themselves? They don't want to be subjected to crimes of terror or crimes of hate any more than the rest of us! What eveidence is there to bear out your theory - if I'm hearing you correctly - that it is Muslims who, in the majority, ought to know about people at risk of being radicalised to either one extreme or the other? If so were the case, then the security services wouldn't require any further information. The fact that the security services are asking for this information rather blows a hole in the theory supported by some people that ALL and ONLY Muslims are terrorists. The number of referrals is nothing to get your blood pressure up for. At this moment in time neither you nor I know just how many of these 3 288 referrals are genuine. Have all been investigated? Have you considered that many, or indeed all, of them may be based on hate rather than on genuine knowledge? It wouldn't be the first time something like that had occurred. Remember the Black Panther murders in the 70s? Hundreds of potential suspects were interviewed, some in Bedlington,and most of them had been reported by people with a personal grudge, pranksters and the odd idiot who got a kick out of wasting police time and public funds. So, among the 3 288 referrals it may turn out that there is only one, if any, that gives any accurate information and that referral can just as well come from any religious Group. The number of referrals from the Muslim Community isn't either anything to get excited about, given that we have no information regarding the number of referrals received from other religious groups - at least not in this article. Ask yourself why the percentage of referrals from other religious groups hasn't been presented in this article. Do we get to know what percentage of referrals have been received from Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, Quakers, Catholics, Mormons, Sikhs, Bahá'iists, devil-worshippers, agnostics, atheists or any other Group of people connected by their belief? No we don't - so it may just be that the 8.6%referrals from Muslims represents a high referral rate when fairly compared with other referral sources. As I said earlier - everything is relative, 3g, everything is relative. Without knowing how other religious groups have referred potential victims of radicalisation we cannot draw conclusions as to whether or not the Muslim community's rate of referral is lower, higher or equal to that of any other religious group. The proof of the pudding is in the eating so let's wait and see. Oh, one final question, - for today - if as you state "The whole purpose of the scheme is to encourage those mythical moderate Islamists to come forward with what they know about radicalisation" why then does the Prevent Strategy work with "a wide range of sectors, including education, criminal justice, faith, charities, online and Health"? Why not just concentrate directly on the Muslim Community?

YES!

I asked about this when I became a member, Maggie and Brett explained it to me in the same way that Malcolm explained it. It's for agreeing with a post without the need to write. The gold stars I've never been able to fathom out.

Ah! it's from the Simpsons! That explains it. Hasn't taken off here. Never seen it.

Could be the start of a whole new series of Dr Who! Hobby sounds exciting too! I do the same thing with cat fur and put it out for the birds in the spring. Now why didn't I Think of weighing the cat. Funny thing is I Think she gets heavier and two years ago, I actually found a mouse hole in the barn - all neatly lined with cat fur. Definitely an influx of mass from external forces.

I remember that our dear, departed friend, Keith Lockey used this 'doh' occasionally and I Always meant to ask him what it meant but never got round to it, I'm very sad to say. Pity, because it's obviously central to the understanding of the post ( #73). Just now I'm not understanding any of it. However, I feel that all will become clear when I get an answer. You were joking about the female deer - weren't you?

What does 'doh' mean?

Religious Education, or Religious Knowledge as it was called in my day, has indeed come a long way, thank ....... (insert whichever deity you follow)! Today's youngsters appear, on the whole, to be more understanding than our generation were at the same age and it's always niceto hear that some of us 'olduns' have continued to widen our views by continuing to learn even after formal schooling has been completed. Roll on the day when intolerance becomes a dying art right up there where it belongs together with sacking of parlour maids for indiscretion and dying of dropsy. Agree wholeheartedly about the friendliness of the Sikhs but I have to say that I've found the Muslims to be the same. Perhaps they are a Little more cautious about opening up but That's not so strange given the present hostile climate. They don't know who to trust sitting, as they do, in the direct firing line for two Groups - ISIS on the one side and the INTOLERANT on the other.

No, no, no, Pilgrim! It's much better to have a rant yourself. Speaking of buttons does anybody know where I can buy one of those buttons seen on the Ykos ads - the one on the arm of the sofa, which when pressed summons a couple of semi- clothed nubile, young men with feather dusters in their hands? (Asking for a friend). I've been round all the shops here without any luck.

Count me in for the multiverse addendum! I can swim to England in less time than it takes for my letters and parcels to arrive! I use the tracking device and I can see that they leave this country the day after posting but seem to disappear for up to weeks Before being delivered. Possibly they are hanging about in this black hole you speak of? The mystery of the belly button fluff is intriguing. I can't say I've noticed it until you mentioned it but something similar occurs between the toes in relation to socks.

I don't Think you are allowed to press your own button Maggie! It shouldn't even be possible and there are probably warning Points involved! 60 points, eh. Somebody must agree with my rantings! Nice to know. But scoring Points is not what the discussion is about - I hope.

Mercuryg, thanks for some good POVs. It amazes me too that people don't take the time to read critically. That is one of the best things I learned to do in school and a habit that was drummed into me by my parents - well my father in particular - was to "never take things at face value". As you say, it's an enjoyable thread which makes me see that all hope is not lost. Maggie, those green buttons have a Life of their own and can make for interesting viewing at times. But not to worry, I Think that plenty of other buttons are being pressed on this thread and not all of them green.

" now here's an interesting FACT that relates to my where are all these moderate Muslms question" So, only 8.6% of the referrals come from Muslims. What's so very strange about that? They only comprise 4.8% of the population so why should the figure be any higher? And, well done Security Minister John Hayes who said "we must work with the overwhelming majority of British people who abhor the twisted narrative that has seduced some of our people". Nice one!

"even requests to explain the Words I've never actually used!" I assume, and I know that you'll correct me should I happen to be wrong, that you are referring to my polite request for " a clarification of YOUR UNDERSTANDING of the Word ghetto" NB: not a clarification of your USE of the Word ghetto or a clarification of the MEANING of the word. There is a difference, and understanding the writer's understanding of a Word helps me, the reader, to better understand your argument. I chose ghetto instead of ghettoised because ghetto is the root of ghettoised, meaning "to put something into a separate, limited category" (OALD). The addition of the typically class changing suffix, -ise, and the inflectional -d do not in anyway change the semantics of the root. In order to understand just what the writer is saying it may be advantageous to the reader to know whether or not the writer's UNDERSTANDING of the Word ghetto includes the notion of a slum. I Think it's a perfectly reasonable request and I'm looking forward to an answer.

And finally, for this evening at any rate, Point 5: "Sharia law is already imposed in our country" (posted today 12.57 PM) This statement is in direct opposition to your statement yesterday (10.09 PM), that "all viewpoints will be equally valid right up to the inevitable day that Sharia law is imposed on us all." I can't seem to find any reference to this anywhere in the British legal system. Could you please quote me, or at least direct me to, the relevant paragraphs. So, just to recap, what I'm asking for is, apart from an explanation as to how I recognise a muslim soley by his appearance (perhaps you missed the question?): a clarification of what is your understanding of the Word ghetto a clarification as to why we British can't succeed with the present wave of refugees just as we did with the Ugandan Asians or the boat-people one (1) example of how any aspect of the British Culture has been replaced by a Group of refugees a source of the given definition for "true refugee" a clarification as to whether Sharia law has, or has not, already been imposed in Britain. With any possible answer in the affirmative, a wink in the direction of the appropriate paragraphs would be very much appreciated.

Point 4: "true refugees Always harbour a desire to go back home when it becomes possible and/or when they have accumulated enough wealth" It is being suggested - no, stated - here that a refugee is a "true refugee" only if he/she "harbours a desire to go back home" Nonsense! None of these people WANT to leave their homeland. None of these people WANT to leave their family. None of these people WANT to be a refugee. All they WANT is for themselves and their Children to not be forced to be any part of war, religious struggle, abject poverty or any of the other atrocities prevailing in their country. The only way to achieve that is to leave. In the case of the Syrians, at least those I've taken the time to listen to, they also have a desire to return to Syria when that's possible (making them "true refugees" if I've understood your meaning). However, they are also realistic. They don't Think that possibility is going to present itself in the forseeable future - and quite frankly neither do I. This may come as a surprise to some, but all hope of returning does not vanish on becoming a British Citizen. The possibility of returning to their homeland is not eradicated by obtaining British citizenship. So, just because they apply for British citizenship does not mean that they don't long to return to their homeland. However, while waiting for any possibility to return, they become integrated (hopefully), their Children, some of them born in Britain, grow up and become just as British as The British themselves.Their family in the homeland are long since dead (it was the older generation who remained there) and the desire they once harboured to return fades with the passing of time. I'm no refugee but even we non refugees long for home and I can openly admit that I don't long for home nearly as often as I did 20 years ago. I've made this my home but It doesn't take away my love for my homeland. That is not a crime!

Point 3: "The present influx is about cultural replacement, not about integration and enrichment ... The Islamic leaders have only got one goal: total World domination" So many people rabbit on about this so-called cultural replacement! Give me just ONE example of how any aspect of British Culture has been replaced by the present, or for that matter any, Group of immigrants. Don't bore me with the usual rubbish about burkas and religion. I've already demonstrated to you that they, as well as all other Brits, have every right in accordance with both British law and constitution to choose their own clothing and religion. As for the Islamic leaders goal of "total World domination", it's the same as with the "overbreeding - there simply aren't enough of them! They are 11 in number - the 12th not having appeared yet. They've been waiting for centuries! Furthermore, It is being assumed here that every practitioner of a religion follows their leader's 'advice' regarding the doctrine involved. They do not! Contraception, and even abortion, are practiced among some catholics. What's to say that muslims agree with everthing their leader says?