Dialect Words And More

[Maggie/915]

You need to say to them:-

'So what is wrong with that'

Too posh for their own good.

[Tonyp]

Maggie no no no it's about dialect that's what I said to them,would you like me to say hotel in a nice cockney accent or would that sound posh to you, most cockneys are working class people they just speak funny I've had loads of arguments with northern m.ps about this & they have apologised.....

[Tonyp]

You do like to disagree without listening I would like to know what makes you tick &what your honest outlook is in life

[Maggie/915]

Oops

Thought I was supporting you!

ie :-

The people from Gosforth think people from Bedlington cannot say Hotel properly!

I think how people speak is about communication simple!

Everyone has a right to an opinion, even if you thinks they have not listened.

What makes me tick & what my honest outlook is in life!

Not sure whatever I said would be acceptable.

[Canny lass]

Tonyp, There are no rights and no wrongs when it comes to pronunciation - as long as you get your message across. As Maggie rightly says, language is all about communication.

If you are pronouncing the word hotel as hoe-tel then you are using standard English, not dialect. When speaking standard English the first syllable  in hotel (ho-) rhymes with the vowel sound in coat, home, bow and of course with the word hoe, which you yourself used in your phonetic interpretation.  Look in any modern English Dictionary which gives a phonetic representation of the Word and you will find this is so but, note my use of the Word 'modern'. All too many people think of English as English and do not realise that it is changing constantly. Words come and words go, sounds become mutated and affected by other words around them and not least by the way we move about and rub shoulders with different dialects. Even the grammar is changing albeit at a very, very slow rate. Thanks to this lack of knowledge most people never bother to renew the dictionary they had at school. They think it will serve its purpose throughout their life and probably throughout the life of their children and grand-children. They are wrong! The life expectancy of a dictionary today is approximately 10 years. Of course the book itself may still be as good as new after 10 years but the information in it will not. 

 

Now, to get back to the Word hotel. If we take three people: one from Bedlington, one from London and one from Gosforth and ask them all to say the word hotel using standard English, chances are that they will all pronounce it differently. The reason is simple. They will all modify their dialect (we all have one - even the Queen). However, it's impossible - without an awful lot of practice - to remove all traces of our dialect. We always leave a trace behind. This trace is called our accent. The person from Bedlington will pronounce the o in one way, the Londoner in another and the guy from Gosforth in yet another. All will speak, what we in the trade call, 'standard English with an accent'.

 

So, you can tell the chaps from Gosforth that they don't know what they are talking about and recommend they buy a new dictionary. As far as standard English is concerned the recommended pronunciation is hoe-tel. However, this doesn't make everything else wrong. Hut -tel, hot-tel, her -tel are all acceptable - not wrong only different.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Canny lass

[Tonyp]

My mate from Gosforth insists it is dialect,what he said its pit yakka talk I agree with him on this one. As

I can tell his a toony by the way he speaks if I spelt it as hotel in your mind that is the way it would come out in your

Reading that's why I spelt it as hoe-tel as you know that is not the correct way to spell it."so it comes out as dialect".

I have read the Geordie dictionary,that gives you the Pharases in Geordie then the meaning in English ??????

[Canny lass]

Then you're both wrong. I think you are confusing dialect with accent. It's a common fault and many people do it. It would make no difference to me if you wrote hotel or hoe-tel. In standard English the pronunciation would be the same. The 'o' would rhyme with the 'o- sound' in coke, coat, bowl, hoe and sew. The same can be said of standard English spoken with an accent. The 'o-sound' would have a North-East accent but would still rhyme if you said those words again. However, accent and dialect are two different things.

 

Without needing to plumb the depths of phonetics you can prove it to yourself by looking in any good, modern Dictionary. I can recommend the Oxford advanced learner's Dictionary - used almost world-wide for students of the English language at University level. To assist learners with their pronunciation the dictionary uses the IPA system for writing words as they are pronounced in standard English. This system uses symbols instead of letters.

 

The symbol for this particular 'o-sound' in the word hotel, spoken in standard English, is an upside-down e followed by u.Unfortunately I'm not able to reproduce it here. The dictionary gives standard English pronunciation for all the words I mentioned and the same symbol appears in all of them.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Canny lass

[Tonyp]

My son has just come from Cardiff university I'll, borrow his dictionary,hope it's not in welsh....

[Canny lass]

No, a welsh Dictionary wouldn't be of any help! Although, a welsh/English bilingual Dictionary, written for welsh stuents of the English language, would be perfect - providing it's not too old. Check to see that it uses the IPA system if you're looking for the symbol I described. If it uses some other system have a look at which symbol they use to represent the 'o'-sound in words like home, hoe, sew. That'll be the symbol to look for when you look up the Words and I guarantee it will be the same in all of them. I hope your son enjoyed Cardiff. I worked at Cardiff University Hospital for a couple of years. Loved Cardiff!

Edited June 30, 2014 by Canny lass

[Tonyp]

His in his final year to start,think he likes the women more than the studying he also plays rugby for Cardiff

[Canny lass]

I forgot to ask: I'd be interested to know, purely from a linguistic point of view, how your mate from Gosforth would pronounce the word hotel if it were to be pronounced 'correctly'? I'm assuming he knows this as he claims that you pronounce it wrongly. Try to write it down for me exactly as you did with hoe-tel. I'm particularly interested in how the 'o' would sound.

 

What's he studying?

Edited June 30, 2014 by Canny lass

[Vic Patterson]

I believe in Gosforth they would pronounce it as one word, hotel, and Tonyp is saying in Bedlington it is pronounced as two words Hoe tel.

(same dialect but with a different accent,I think!)

[Maggie/915]

Purely from a 'linguistic point of view' I do love our accent and dialect.

Thanks Canny Lass for all your input.

I have taken note or should I say 'listened'!

[Canny lass]

Thanks Maggie,I appreciate that you appreciate my passion for language. It's nice to be passionate about something, isn't it! GGG waxes lyrical about computing, Keith about his astronomy, Malcolm and Adam about local politics. I think it's so nice when people take an interest in something, learn all they can about it and then share that knowledge with others. I've learned loads on this site and about things I never thought I'd be interested in!! It must be awful to not persue any interest.. It makes for a very dull Life and we all know what was said about Jack with his relationship to work and play.

 

I Think it was Dr.Seuss who wrote "If you keep your eyes open, - oh,the things you will see -the most wonderful things". I think that's very true but would have preferred that he'd said 'an open mind'.

Still - we can't have Everything.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Canny lass

[Canny lass]

One or two definitions which may make the following explanation easier to follow:

 

Standard English: this is the standard form of the English language, taught in all schools, both as a first and second language. It has a written and a spoken form.

 

Dialect: is a regional variation of spoken Standard English. A dialect has no written form - we all give our own, different interpretation of the sounds. It's still English but it sounds different depending on where you come from. This is why a Geordie and a cockney both sound very different even though they are both speaking the same language. A dialect sounds different from Standard English because, at times, the speaker

 

• deviates from the standard structure of the language (grammar). Example: div and divent as forms of the verb to do (albeit only when it's used as an auxilliary.
• uses Words that are not part of the standard language. Example: marra and hackey.

 

Accent: is the national or local way of pronouncing Words. It doesn't involve grammar at all and neither does it involve using new Words in the vocabulary. We can have a national accent: He speaks with a French accent or She has a nice Australian accent. We can also have a local accent: He has a bit of a Bedlington accent or You can tell she's from Gosforth by her accent. When we say this we mean that the speaker's nationality , or which region in England he comes from, can be determined purely by the way he pronounces certain Words.

 

If you've got, and are proud to use, a distinctive dialect then it goes without saying that you'll also have a distinctive accent. However, they are separate entities, not to be confused with one Another. They can, in fact, be used separately. We separate them every time we start to speak Standard English. Standard English has no dialectal features but I'm 100% certain that our accent will reveal our geographic origins.

 

So, Vic, you are at least on the right track when you say "same dialect but with a different accent". A dialect can be associated with several accents - but it's only an association. It's not part of the dialect. The North-Eastern dialect, commonly known as Geordie, has many different accents, among them a Bedlington accent, a Gosforth accent, a Morpeth accent and so on. What some people seem to be doing is confusing these two things - dialect and accent.

 

How we pronounce the Word hotel has nothing at all to do with dialect. Firstly, we don't make any grammatical Changes to it. We form the plural according to the rules of Standard English: one hotel/two hotels. We form the genitive according to the rules of Standard English: the manager of the hotel/the hotel's reputation and, it takes the same articles as other common nouns: a hotel/the hotel. That's about all we can do with a common noun - from a grammatical Point of view.

 

Secondly, the Word hotel is not a Creation of the North Eastern dialect. It is a Word in the vocabulary of the English language, Standard English, where it's been in common use since it was borrowed from the French language in the 17th Century.It probably started it's rounds, as most other loan- Words of the period, in the London area among the upper-clasess - far, far away from the banks of the Tyne.

 

In other Words, it does not meet either of the grammatical or lexical criteria needed to classify it as dialect.

 

It can, however, be pronounced with a Nórth East/Geordie accent - or any other regional accent for that matter. My Point is a) that no matter with which accent it is pronounced it can never be dialect, as Tonyps mate "insists" and that no matter how it is pronounced - with or without an accent - it can never be "wrong" as Tonyp's mate claims, at least not as long as it conveys the meaning 'a building where rooms are provided in return for payment' and the listener has understood that. Language is for communication, as Maggie rightly pointed out,

 

I wait- but not with bated breath - for Tonyp's response as to how his learned friend would have us pronounce the Word hotel correctly. Gosforth accent? My money's on hut-el with vowel reduction on the first syllable and primary stress on the second. Standard English? I can't even begin to guess if hoe-tel is wrong.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Canny lass

[Malcolm Robinson]

Think there is more likley a perceived 'w' just before the secondary 'tel' Canny lass.

[Maggie/915]

W O W fantastic.

All this from our little site with big ideas .

[Canny lass]

Would that be the Gosforth accent or Standard English, Malcolm? I agree that when we pronounce the Word hotel, on its own, with an accent,  then an expirational 'w' can be experienced by the listener. In speech at normal speed this would be assimilated. However it doesn't appear in Standard English - not according to the phonetics editors, most of them University professors, in any of the dictionaries I possess. When we utilize the organs of speech,lips, tongue, teeth etc. the lips don't come Close enough together on the transition between 'o' and 't' to produce a 'w'-sound. We'll just have to wait for Tonyp's mate to give us the correct pronunciation.

 

PS sorry about all the extra capital letters and even the odd smiley which appear in my previous text. I have no Control over this.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Canny lass

[Tonyp]

Canny lass! When he says hotel,it's sounds like the o is missing its hard to explain you probably need to here him say it.

Sometimes he takes the mikey out of my accent,all in good jest, I give him it back though I'll try to explain he says it really fast

Typical toony.its like hot-el but he says it fast as the o becomes shortened hope that makes sense. Remember my grannie

Would say polace instead of the police & she used to roll her r's as though she was trying to bring phlegm up she did make me

Laugh

[Tonyp]

Fine Art,wants to be a teacher told him to go to bedlington he'd get a good house that would offset his uni loan

[Canny lass]

Thanks Tonyp. It's not easy to write how a Word sounds is it? That's why linguists use the IPA system. Your mate's pronunciation is exactly what I thought it would be: hut-el with vowel reduction (shortening of the 'o' until it's almost inaudible) on the first syllable and primary stress (emphasizing the sound and making it sound just a Little longer than normal) on the second. You can tell your mate that you, every time you say hoe-tel, are using either:

 

Standard English (if you pronounce hoe the way Her Magesty would)

OR 

Standard English with a North East accent (if you pronounce hoe the way most people from Bedlington do - with a North East accent). 

 

He, on the other hand, is speaking a North East dialect with, presumably a Gosforth accent. Or he might just be trying to speak 'posh' and failing miserably.

[Tonyp]

Cheers,my son talks with a Hertfordshire accent,the lads at work say does he talk like you. I just laugh at them & say

Unfortunately he talks like you....

[Canny lass]

Hertfordshire accent sounds like your mate? Then I have to change my opinion, Your mate,s  not using a North East dialect. He'speaking Standard English with a Gosforth accent That's the same as "trying to speak posh and failing miserabley".

[Tonyp]

My son talks with a Hertfordshire accent not my mate my son was born there Cheshunt my mate is just a simple toony mind you

His claim to fame is mark knophlers mum thought him English

[Canny lass]

Mark Knophler's mum as English teacher! That explains everything! Not surprised he gets his accents and dialects mixed up