Sting -When The Last Ship Sails

[Maggie/915]

Good performances from Sting Jimi Nail, as well as Katherine and Peter Tickell.

It was on on BBC1 Sunday at 10.55 if anyone has replay.

Our region has loyal supporters.

[Symptoms]

The Cramlington Budgie Strangler and the Benwell Basher were both seen at the Palace V Toon match.

 

Whilst I applaud CBS's efforts at immortalising the region's past I just can't listen comfortably to his mid-Atlantic twang attempting our accent/dialect ... it really does seems false.

[Maggie/915]

The match was held in terrible weather.

I guess they were in the directors box.

Unfortunately we have Palace supporters in the family.

What an admission!

Now Symptoms surely your accent has changed a little over the years.

[Symptoms]

I never had a really pronounced accent, however, when I got to London as a student in '69 my Tutor suggested elocution lessons ... cheeky sod.  Of course I refused, and I'm glad I did.  At the time regional accents were looked down on by the metropolitan elites but subsequently became fashionable.  

 

My issue with folk like CBS and Robson Green (a really bad offender) is their deliberate attempt to change how they speak ... it just sounds fake and in no way can be described as a natural modification due to 'new' influences.   

[Vic Patterson]

I have to disagree with you Symptoms! Why would you move to another area that talks differently to you and not talk in a way that they can understand what you are saying! communication!

All of the exiles that I know "ahll taak posh†but still have strong Geordie accents! (or accents of wherever they came from)

We get a chuckle listening to such as Geordie John Herdman, Canada's ladies soccer coach.

(Jump in linguist Canny Lass, I'm struggling here)

[Maggie/915]

I agree we need Canny Lass to add to this debate.

Some people can switch in and out of any accent.

Then there is dialect, or standard English with an accent.

[Maggie/915]

Symptoms look up Raymond Reed Dialect Poet on U Tube.

There are two clips both start the same but have different content one lasts 7 minutes the other 14.

Canny Lass does not agree with all that is said but it is interesting.

Raymond was a bin man in Bedlington .

[mickypotts]

Aalreet aal ov yis, when yi live live wi nee otha geordies aroond yi, yer voice and accent changes withoot even tryin, it cannit be helped, but when aah git on the phone wi me brothers the geordie comes right back and my bairns think its hilarious cos it stays fer a half hour after aah hang up.

neebodies puttin on any fake or false accents it just happens, and everybody know that I am not american but Geordies knaa that aam from Geordieland but aav been away fer a while.

even reet noo aam thinkin in Geordie as aah Type!!!

it is confusing but thers Nowt fake about it, and Sting is a Great Musician,

 

Hope this helps.............

[Vic Patterson]

So right Micky! I often get asked what language I was talking in when taakin tu me brutha!

[Canny lass]

I don't know either CBS or Robson Green and I've never Heard them speak so I don't really know what Symptoms means, when he says "it sounds fake". There's a northern expression, "putting it on", which I've Heard people use when referring to people who are deemed to behaving in a manner above their station - so to speak. The same expression can be used when speaking of changing the way you speak. I wonder if this is what you meant - that they speak in a manner which we would normally connect with a higher social class? In that case we're not talking about dialects but sociolects. A sociolect has nothing to do with geographic origins, unless the speaker is adopting Another dialect to fit in with a Group for example a Geordie who moves to Yorkshire and starts to speak with a Yorkshire dialect at work but retains his Geordie dialect at home with the wife.

 

Much depends on the context in which speech Changes are made. There are individuals who change their way of speaking several times a day depending on who they are talking to. They make these Changes for several reasons:

 

• to aid Communication: Changes in speed of talking, dialectal reduction/removal
• to show their sense of belonging, or wanting to belong to, a certain Group: adopting dialectal features, use of jargon (especially in the working environment), use of slang and swear words (in certain age Groups and social Groups)
• to diminish a sense of dialectal inferiority
• to increase a sense of dialectal superiority

All of these Changes can be made by conscious effort on the part of the speaker but they can also occur naturally, triggered by something in the situation. . We have to take into consideration the context in which the Changes are made. For example, a speaker with a strong Northumbrian dialect, who speaks broad dialect at home, at work and in social situations can change his speech to aid Communication when speaking to a doctor because it's important that the doctor understands the problem. Put the same person on radio to appeal for funds for his sports club and he'll change his way of speaking again - because he wants to get his message across to as many as possible. Give the same person a new neighbour from the home counties and he'll start speaking with him in dialect but will most likely start to reduce his own dialect and even adopt a bit of the new neighbour's just to aid Communication and to make the neighbour feel at home. These are natural Changes to aid Communication. The speaker isn't often aware that they are making Changes.

 

However, if this same speaker then goes to the social club and starts speaking to his mates in the same way he's talked to the doctor, on the radio and with his neighbour it's not about aiding Communication. They already understand his dialect. There's no need for change. Then one of two things has happened: he's "putting it on" or he's adapted to a new way of talking because of the frequent use. He'll be speaking standard English with an accent. The accent is hard to lose. Not impossible but hard.

 

So each of you is correct in some way.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Canny lass

[Malcolm Robinson]

Came back on the Eurostar recently and at 'boarder control, customs' in Paris the woman checking my passport asked a couple of questions.  She said I had a good Newcastle accent, and she was obviously from our part of the world herself, I said "No hinny Bedlington!"  She laughed and waved me through!     

[keith lockey]

One thing I've noted with regards to language and dialect, in Bedlington, is the fact that so few people actually say Bedlington ( Bed-ling-ton) it is always Beddleton. It's the same with Ashington - Asherton. If I talk to a stranger on the phone I tend to say 'yes' instead of 'Aye', and 'home' instead of 'yem'.

 

Once I phoned the information desk at Wansbeck Council and asked if they had any details of cycle paths in the Wansbeck area.

I was told by a haughty receptionist that she couldn't give out that information due to the Data Protection Act. Somewhat puzzled I explained that I had just bought a push bike and I wanted to know where the cycle paths were. There was a sudden gasp and apology on the other end of the phone and she said "I'm sorry, i thought you said Psychopaths." (True!!)

[Malcolm Robinson]

   

 

Only in WDC!  

[Malcolm Robinson]

I have to agree with Sym on this one, it really grates on my when Robson Green says a word with deliberate inflection to sound 'posh'.  I realise these people might have had to change the way they speak for their acting careers or publicity machines but  that doesn't stop it being annoying in the same way Loyd Grossman and Robert Peston make my teeth grate whenever they open their traps too! 

 

No wonder poor little talentless Cheryl couldn't get that American gig, everyone is selling out their vernacular birthrights in a bid to become mid Atlantic mediocre!    

[Vic Patterson]

I'd suggest you get someone record you talking when your "haf cut taakin tu yu marras†then try recording the same thing talking to someone "doon the smoke or owa sea'sâ€

 

Even Bobby Thompson and Bobby Pattinson taaked posh to be understood.

[Canny lass]

It's in no way 'posh', Vic. It's standard English - which every Child in Britain is taught in school. Standard English is in fact also a dialect - a dialect that is used as the institutionalized norm in a Community. It usually has a bit of prestige, because it's used in administrative institutions, but isn't posh. Standardization is not, as many seem to Think, a result of the influences of BBc and other media. Standardization of the English language started way back in the 11th century. That standard English has it's roots in a Southern county dialect isn't a matter of that dialect being deliberately chosen to represent the Enlish language. It just happened. There have been a great many influences at work over the centuries in making standard English what it is today.

 

Prior to the Norman conquest the Brits used  west saxon to communicate but after the Norman conquest, 1066, the seat of power moved from Winchester to London and most changes in the language started to emerge then and continued doing so for the next 300 years.

 

By the mid 14th Century the growth of a standardized English from the London area can be seen in many old documents. The dialect in London at that time was really a mixture of several dialects and the central Londoner's way of speaking was influenced by the Essex-, Westminster- and Middlesex dialects but little by little these merged into one dialect. Most of the Changes that we can see relate to London's development as the political, social and Commercial centre of Britain. (The same can be said for most, if not all, 'standard' languages in Europé. They all have their origins in the dialect of the area which became 'the seat of power'). That's not so strange when you Think about it. That's where the Money was.

 

In the case of English, the most significant influence was probably the setting up of the administrative offices of the London Chancery. Thanks to them, huge amounts of documents were hand-copied in and around London and many standardizations emerged thanks to the Chancery scribes. These standardizations spread among other scribes who worked privately and soon many other types of texts began to include their standardizations. It was only a short step then to the ultimate standardization that was necessary when Caxton set up his Printing press - also in the London area of Westminster.

 

That's a very potted version of the major influences. There are of course many other influences at work, even today. Language is a living thing, it's constantly changing, it will Always be changing. It's Always trying to find ways of refining the process of Communication and there is nothing we can do to stem the tide of language change. Some see these Changes as progress and others see them as a sort of decay. We can't stop it. If we could then we would all still be speaking like Chaucer.

 

I can understand Symptoms feelings about how it sounds to try speaking posh but often it's done without any conscious awareness and most often to aid Communication. Of course it can sound odd to hear a northern, or any other, accent (the vowelsounds and melody of a dialect) imposed on a Southern dialect. It's like hanging an easter egg on a Christmas tree - not quite what we are used to. But it's not wrong If it aids Communication and sense of identity/belonging it can never be wrong, only different. 

Edited December 28, 2013 by Canny lass

[Adam Hogg]

What really grinds at me is how people say to me "your a Geordie" I then have to grit my teeth and say nicely to them after a few seconds "I am not a Geordie, Geordies are from Newcastle and Gateshead, I am a Northumbrian because I'm from Northumberland."

[Eileen]

Thank u Keith My ribs are hurting from laughing, just what I needed.       

[Brian Cross]

What really grinds at me is how people say to me "your a Geordie" I then have to grit my teeth and say nicely to them after a few seconds "I am not a Geordie, Geordies are from Newcastle and Gateshead, I am a Northumbrian because I'm from Northumberland."

Well said Adam

[Symptoms]

No, no, no, Adam!  A Geordie is somebody born on the NORTH bank of the Tyne and within 'hockling' distance of it.  Folks born south of the Tyne are black'n'tackers;  those webbed feet horrors who emerged from the slime of that fetid stream an few miles south of the mighty Tyne are known as mackems.  You're correct that folks born in Bedlington are Northumbrian not Geordies. 

 

My original objection to CBS's mangled warblings was about how he has reverted to howling in a Geordie accent when he normally speaks in a mid-Atlantic version of Received Pronunciation ... to my ear it sounds plain wrong.  It's almost like Betty Saxe-Coburg and Gotha squawking like a Cullercoats fishwife ... imagine that pre-War clipped English, mixed with a guttural Berlin twang, overlaid with 'winkles, penny a pint'.  That's what the CBS sounds like.

[Maggie/915]

I think we are all going to have to agree to differ.

All accents change depending on the audience.

Interesting to hear children talking today, the influence of popular culture is often more important than local dialect or region.

Sting and Robson Green have my vote for promoting our area in a positive way.

[Canny lass]

Adam and Brian, sorry but I'm unable to use the quote function. It appears to have been sacrificed in order to rid me of my underlining and crossing out problems.

Don't get upset when anyone (other than a Sunderland supporter) calls you a geordie. As far as I know there are no visible distinguishing features that differentiate a geordie from a cockney or a brummy, so I'm assuming that they are making the deduction based on what they are hearing - your dialect or, more probably, your accent.

 

There are no hard and fast boundaries among dialects. Many dialects share common features. This is particularly evident among neighbouring dialects and in the case of the North East dialects that's not so  strange. They all originated from the language of the Angles, who occupied the whole area. In linguistic circles ALL of the North East dialects were previously grouped together under the name 'Northumbrian'. It's an outdated name now. Early linguists drew the Dividing line between  northern and Southern dialects roughly from the river Humber to the River Ribble so, surprisingly, even the scots dialect was classed as northern.

 

In the late 1940s through to the early 1960s there was a huge survey of English dialects (the Dieth-Orton Survey). It was based on rural communities and the researchers found that the North/South boundary had moved much further South - the Dividing line running diagonally south west from Humberside to the South Midlands. In other words, many dialect features of the North east were now being Heard way outside of the Northumberland area. They also found that very few people spoke traditional dialects. Since then there have been a number of smaller studies and these have been based on urban- rather than rural communities. That's good, because industrialization brought with it urbanisation and this has influenced dialects enormously. These later studies reflect the ever increasing mobility of the population and the changing social structure. People move about more, class barriers have diminished and dialects and sociolects are able to rub shoulders with each other on a Daily basis. They rub off on each other. That's progress - or decay, depending how you look at it.

 

Very few people today speak a Northumbrian dialect. I will be very surprised if you do. Most speak standard English with a North East accent. My guess is that you do too.  When a 'southerner' says you're a geordie he 's not aware of the fine Dividing lines that northerners themselves impose upon the North East dialect (as it's called today). He's only aware of certain dialectal features assosciated with the North East and the name of a prominent north east city. The Word 'geordie is intranationally accepted to mean 'of or belonging to the North East of England'.

 

Ask a handful of northerners which dialect a Londoner speaks and the odds are they'll all answer Cockney - even if it was only spoken in a very small area of the city and today is spoken by very few. Cockney, to a northerner, is synonomous with London dwellers - all of them. While you're at it ask them to tell you the differences between Geordie and Northumbrian. I doubt if any of them will be able to enlighten you about any differences in the language itself, only the area they think it comes from.

 

Don't be offended by people who call you a geordie. Be proud that they've recognised that you come from the Norh East.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Canny lass

[Adam Hogg]

Very few people today speak a Northumbrian dialect. I will be very surprised if you do. Most speak standard English with a North East accent. My guess is that you do too.  When a 'southerner' says you're a geordie he 's not aware of the fine Dividing lines that northerners themselves impose upon the North East dialect (as it's called today). He's only aware of certain dialectal features assosciated with the North East and the name of a prominent north east city. The Word 'geordie is intranationally accepted to mean 'of or belonging to the North East of England'.

Depends who and where I am talking Canny lass, If I'm talking to my family i talk with a Northumberland "sort of" dialect (have yet to get the exact sort of dialect) but if I'm one the phone in a council meeting, job interview, etc. I talk Standard English but somethings the Northumberland comes out.

[Canny lass]

"I talk with a   Northumberland "sort" of" dialect (have yet to get the exact sort of dialect)" but if I'm on the phone in a council meeting, job interview, etc. I talk Standard English but somethings the Northumberland comes out"

 

Well there you go, Adam. Aren't you being a bit hard on 'non-North easters' who can't pin-point your exact geographic origins when they hear you speak? Stop being irritated by them and instead be proud that you've retained enough of the North-East dialect (and North-East accent, when you speak standard English) that they can recognise which area you are from.

[Adam Hogg]

"I talk with a   Northumberland "sort" of" dialect (have yet to get the exact sort of dialect)" but if I'm on the phone in a council meeting, job interview, etc. I talk Standard English but somethings the Northumberland comes out"

 

Well there you go, Adam. Aren't you being a bit hard on 'non-North easters' who can't pin-point your exact geographic origins when they hear you speak? Stop being irritated by them and instead be proud that you've retained enough of the North-East dialect (and North-East accent, when you speak standard English) that they can recognise which area you are from.

It is when I speak to people in a Northumbria dialect they say "So your a Geordie" and it irritates me, not when I talk standard English I sound posh according to some people.

Also the people I talk to are North Easterners most from Northumberland and a few from Newcastle.