threegee

Nothing like as big a majority as in other parts of the NE. Won't be too many years before most of those 82K realise that they have a lot to thank the other 97K for! Older and wiser heads prevailing is seldom a bad thing.

You'll just have to hope for a Brexit every day then! I'm overjoyed that my cost of living has gone up sharply for now (but it won't get any worse than it got under global Gordon). Anyway, the inevitable demise of the overvalued Euros I have to find has been hastened a lot. Remember that the people who are betting against Sterling this morning are the people who've just lost a packet with their huge bookie bets on Remain, and are also the same people who failed to foresee the debt crisis when it was staring them fully in the face. With a competent PM - one that's not essentially anti-British - and a chancellor that's not a vindictive school-yard bully boy, Sterling will inevitably climb again. Put your country first, and it will do what it has always done and look after you!

I think that's a rationalisation of what is going on, and a bit removed from reality. I know a substantial private investor in the Irish Republic and he has a rather large capital sum ready to switch from Euros into Sterling if Sterling shows any substantial weakness on Brexit. He's not betting against UK enterprise, and I'm not either! Even though I need Euros to pay bills we keep as little as possible in Euros because some time quite soon we'll be very glad we did! I'm NOT saying there aren't bumps in the road either way, but the independent UK route will have far fewer of them over time.

So... either Leave has no chance at all or Osborne was lying in his teeth. I wonder which? As the politicos never tire of reminding us "the markets don't like uncertainty". This is true, but they do like market opportunity, and Leave is a huge opportunity to build a more outward looking economy. Osborne been dying to order the markets to close, and take measures to punish voters, but a vindictive, game-playing, politician like this has no right to be anywhere near the controls of our economy. If the Tory party don't remove him very quickly they deserve everything they get from the electorate. His reputation as a bully at Eton school seems well deserved.

This is very true. I'd only add that voters must be allowed to make mistakes then correct them at the earliest practical opportunity. That's why Cameron's stance on this referendum is so damnable. Douglas Carswells' right of recall bill should become law, but there is huge vested interest amongst our elites who won't countenance any such proposal. The public needs to wake up to this opportunity to extend our democracy, and demand that this is enacted.

And of course academics with huge vested interests in maintaining their generous funding don't? After all they are academics (like me?) and not horribly biased journalists. I detect a bit of snobbery in there re. mass circulation papers too. Just because they present as they do doesn't mean that what they have to say is any less valid. Actually I think you'll find that right wing publications (like the Spectator) go out of their way to employ left wing journalists to fertilise their offering with challenging ideas (and don't censor their on-line comments). The reverse certainly isn't the case, as anyone with challenging ideas posting on the Guardian website can testify. So, the popular conception of a mirrored dichotomy between left and right is well clear of reality.

You decry my use of adjectives, then deploy adjectives yourself without attaching them to anything specific - anything which can be counter argued. That comprises a cheap shot, because you aren't prepared to have your own ideas tested.

If you had nothing in mind then by definition it was a cheap shot. Yes, I feel very strongly about the EU because I get to see its affect on real people. Which journalist would that be? Tell me what field has this Professor got his "20 years experience" in, and what will happen to that experience when we Brexit? That he's EU funded is undeniable, and he actually spouts the civil service line. You constantly make pretence of being dispassionate about things but, as revealed here, this is far from the truth. If ANY of the detailed argument I have presented above against Dugan's position are fallacious then please argue your case, else you've lost the argument!

The one on the Leave side is nothing like as massive as the EU one, and it isn't involuntarily funded by you or I. The EU one is to ensure the continued growth of the creature, and that creature has become an all-consuming monster.

You've just described the EU and its myriad international business lobby groups, and yet you actually voted for this! Did you watch Brexit the Movie or even Lexit the Movie?

Is that a cheap shot, or do you have anything specific in mind CL? I'm fully in accord on a null vote, and I think most people would be. But this is something else our politicos don't want to contemplate. It's an utter disgrace that in a supposedly democratic country our elites should be telling us that this referendum is a once in a lifetime decision. Voters must be allowed to make mistakes and have the freedom to correct them, that's at the very core of democracy - the arguments against this are entirely spurious.

And, Eggy how about opening your mind to exactly why Dougan is coming out with all this drivel? Follow the money and you'll see! He's very coy about his own funding but a female colleague isn't quite so unforthcoming. She admits to EU money, but you need to dig a little deeper to find out where Liverpool Law School gets much of it's funding. It's part of the Russell Group of universities, which seems to be how most of the payola is channelled. There's an interesting document titled "Russell Group universities and the European Union" which boasts about the £3.5 billions of EU money it is responsible for disbursing. It also boasts about £579 millions of direct funding. It, and more, is all our own money of course, cleverly presented to glorify the font of all beneficence. If you don't boldly present a project as EU funded (even though they only stump up 50% most of the time and place strings on the local funding element too) your funding is rapidly withdrawn. There's a massive propaganda machine out there that feeds on public gullibility, and you and I are funding it - "open your minds" to that!

OK, I've done just that - virtually the whole unremitting Irish blarney, and what do I hear? I hear a guy that is a highly paid expert on EU law telling us why we can't do without err... EU law. There's not a single economic or sociological argument there, and there's no mention of opportunity cost - because he wouldn't know what a business opportunity was if it was presented to him by the entire Dragon's Den panel chanting in unison. His sole argument is we are so deep in the EU s**t that even I can't tell you how we are going to get out. He then cites two examples of the supposed insolubility: a) What happens to the 3 million EU citizens in the UK, and the 2 million UK citizens in the EU? Well, I suspect the government's figures on the former is an underestimate, and his figure on the latter is in fact a whopping 700,000 too high (he's echoing Cleggie's back of fag packet figures, so some research he's done there!) I prefer to believe the properly audited UN figure rather than the UK government one, because it accords with my on-the-ground experience and gives a fairly detailed picture. As a law professor he should know the answer to his own question: the answer is the Vienna Convention says that precisely nothing must happen to either. The chief lie here is that UK citizens in the EU work there; the vast majority are retired and do no such thing. Brits have always retired and been welcome in continental Europe. This goes way back into history, and their money is a life-saver in many poorer regions. Though, what amazes me is that only about 20% of our retirees move to our closest neighbours; the great majority prefer to move to far more distant English speaking countries - which in itself says a lot about our relationship with continental Europe. Post-Brexit those EU citizens who are gainfully employed will be self-certified by their employers. The rest will be treated respectfully according to their status and respect for the law. Our government will reassume the power to deport miscreants on its own terms, just like any other sovereign nation. Practicably all UK retirees have already applied for resident status, and that can't be revoked. If they haven't done this they already running the risk of being told to leave under current rules - so, again, nothing changes! This isn't theory or supposition: Brits live alongside non-EU citizens in continental Europe and compare notes with them all the time. And, guess what? The non-EU citizens have the odd extra form to fill in now and then, but it's trivial, and all ex-pats have the option to use local facilitators who perform this service every day, and work for unbelievably little by UK accountant's standards. Mrs 3G has just used one such facilitator to convert her driving licence, and what a lot of hassle he has saved her! This guy really needs to get his nose out of his law books and get out into the real world! b ) The "problem" with the border with the RoI. Again, the answer is nothing. This may be a problem for the protectionist EU, but it wasn't a problem for a country like ours with an international outlook before our entanglement with the EU, and it is very unlikely to be after. Certainly there will be spot checks to see that the Republic isn't abusing the continued understanding (and these must already quietly go on), but life will proceed pretty much as normal. The future though is that either the RoI will at some point leave the EU as it economically disintegrates, or more likely a reformed EU (triggered by Brexit) will incidentally solve the Republic's problem for it. That's a situation that's too painful for fully paid-up EUphiles like him to contemplate. In fact there's a body within the Leave lobby that would like the UK to rejoin when genuine reform is achieved - Brexit is their means to this end. That's not an entirely unreasonable position, but I think we shouldn't hang around for this to happen, and move forward with other like-minded countries. The EU is all about solving 20th century problems that no longer exist; it's anachronistic in the 21st century, and actually creates problems which Europe does not need! I could go on, but will spare you. All I will say to sum up is that his self-serving (and more than likely EU funded) blarney stream hinges on the premise that UK citizens are there to serve the law, whereas the reverse is true. He's part of the EU machine, lecturing to an obviously receptive audience where no questioning is permitted, and quite probably has no personal experience of how we managed our own affairs for the last 1000-40 years. His arguments about Norway can be torn to shreds - yet, we aren't Norway! He fails to even countenance that an EFTA with the UK, and an EU without the UK will be an entirely different world, because that's the last thing his paymasters would want to hear. I was actually quite interested when you posted the video, and thought there might be a new angle or two, but sadly it's all just regurgitated, unimaginative, and self-serving EU drivel.

It there a medicine to treat an entire national epidemic of denial-of-the-stark-facts? I took as my source that thoroughly right-wing reactionary publication The Guardian. Because all the very many other sources would have suffered an immediate ad hominem credibility attack. Refugees refusing to leave bus in 'too cold' Swedish village to be removed Refugees should be in quotes of course, but the Guardian has to be allowed their delusions too. Once again the main point has been ducked, and the entire focus is on a secondary issue - that's one of the symptoms of the disease! And, I actually didn't say the weather was bad - that reflects your thought process, not mine. And, as for those rape statistics: please tell me why I can't find any that post-date 2011? Are you telling me that if they'd even levelled-off they wouldn't have been published right away? And no, I'm not for one minute suggesting everyone would "do the same thing"; everyone doesn't come from a culture where women are second class citizens, to be treated as bagged-up chattels.

You forgot the bit about them being welcomed by George Osborne (who was on his way to punish local pensioners by clawing back a chunk of their pensions as punishment for not voting for his forthcoming massive EU one). Anyway, despite the fact that UK nationals living in other parts of the EU have no say in constitutional matters there no matter how long they have been resident, George immediately granted these Bongobongans rights to determine how our country is governed for at least the next 1000 years. When challenged on whether this was fair he sniffed "I think you are being a trifle pedantic there; after this week you won't actually have a recognisable country to concern your inconsequential plebeian self about". He then went on to explain how Dave and he had dreamed the whole wheeze up in an idle moment at Eaton when they'd got tired of abusing younger pupils. "We worked out that there were sufficient gullible people to believe in this touchy-feely United Europe twaddle the first time around, but we had to fix it so's they'd never get another vote. You know the supply of people who can be consistently persuaded to vote against all their very own interests and trash any prospect of their own economic advancement has been pretty much cornered by the Labour Party, though it is going down fast there too. That's why we desperately need to end British democracy right now, because we'd die before we were forced by the electorate to go out and get a real job." ...he chortled.

P.S. You know your "they can't speak the language" bit above? I was wondering what I'd do if I got to a bit of the promised land and found out they spoke a funny entirely non-English language, and also found out that it was colder than I could ever have imagined. Boy, I'd be upset! I could be sooo upset I might turn a bit antisocial and go out and... no... no... unthinkable! I think what I'd do is try to find another bit of promised land that spoke universal English and that was maybe a tad or two warmer. It would help a lot if it had a generous social security system like cold place promised land, and if they aspired to having the highest minimum wage in the world, and had a much bigger economy, and a global outlook... well...wow, it would be like the streets were paved with gold there. So.. once I got all my promised land documentation (and my free €400 dental treatment), and picked up the other goodie bags from cold place promised land (and had been terribly careful NOT to rape any of the gorgeous cold place promised land women), I'd be setting out for that other bit of the promised land, no matter how many millions of immigrants in all the other parts of promised land had had exactly the same idea as me. You know, if I lost any time it could be that the universal English speaking bit of promised land realised that it was about to be entirely overrun, and actually did something about the utterly crazy open borders idea. Important note: In the above story any resemblance between the fictitious nations mentioned, and real nations - both living and having committed auto-genocide - is entirely coincidental.

Side?! Surely the country where everyone stands in a circle, holds hands, gazes at the midnight sun, and imagines a better world (one where less than 25% of indigenous females will suffer a rape)? Seems those authorities do a lot of other thinking and deciding for common people too. But, maybe not quite as much as they did a short while ago. The Swedish Democrats, a relatively new party: 2010 - 5.7% winning 20 seats 2014 - 12.9% winning 49 seats (And it seems knocking on for 25% in some areas; possibly the areas where old people do have to queue to pay their €400 whist the uninvited immigrants get free treatment, and free everything else.) 2018 - ?? Isn't PR a wonderful thing Mr Cameron? Though, I have to report that in this other outpost of the Fourth Reich we have no waiting problems either. I went for a filling last week, and there was no one else in the spotless waiting room - there pretty much never ever is. You hardly need to make an appointment as you could ring up and ask to be seen straight away. The treatment is magnificent (dentist is a local politico, so you can have your other little local difficulties sorted whilst in the chair - Italy is SO efficient!). Not one but two pretty dental assistants do all the non-drilly things. Why is this so in a municipality with 40,000 people, and not all that many dentists? Simple: few locals can manage the €80 (up from €70 last year) because there's mass unemployment. That's due to Germany ordering that the nation struggles on with a currency that is at least 30% overvalued, and getting ever more out of kilter by the month. The EU solution to this: you are being too profligate, stop eating! Meanwhile we will loan you even more money (on our dictatorial terms) to increase the existing huge debt burden that you will never be able to repay anyway. And, if you won't accept the money and decide to break free of our debt trap we will remove any elected politician who makes that decision, and replace him with someone who will do exactly as we instruct. What do our (illegal) immigrants do for dental treatment? For some reason I've never though to ask one, but I'm primed to do this now. I suspect that they will laugh and point to northern Europe. Maybe I really shouldn't hand out any more bars of chocolate - though a tube of toothpaste and a toothbrush might not be as acceptable.

I notice you skipped over the important bit about mass immigration, and the reason for mentioning dental care in the first instance. Could it be that TT suffers from a bit of establishment pressure that colours its output? Try RT instead! Interestingly Five Star has just won the mayorship of Rome with a rather attractive young lady candidate (well.. this is Italy), and EU puppet PM Mario Renzi is on the run. Except... that Renzi himself has been making disturbing (to Brussels) noises of late, and their undemocratic placeman may yet turn on his masters. That Italy will drop out of the Euro is inevitable, but the previously unthinkable now seems a possibility: that Italy will quit both the Euro and the EU. For those that don't know: Five Star is the Italian approximate equivalent of Ukip, and votes with Ukip and many other smaller parties in the European Parliament as the Europe of Freedom and Democracy group. At the last general election it polled a massive 25% of the national vote, cutting right through traditional party loyalties; it's still on the rise as this latest result (67% of the Rome vote) illustrates.

I raised the likely resurgence of EFTA on another thread, but our Scandinavian buddies are certainly thinking along the same lines. And why shouldn't they - they've been trying to hold out against German domination of Europe for decades, and waiting for the economic power of the UK to set a lead. It's now or never! A genuine free trade area will be over the dead bodies of Merkel and Hollande, and snake-oil -salesman Cameron, and all their cohort of control freaks - but... if that's how it has to be! That there is a sane alternative to the EU is something the Remanians never want to discuss, because it's far too close to what we all voted for in 1975 for their comfort. In fact the EU has tried to stifle and kill off the European Free Trade Area (EFTA) but it has bravely held out. The Leave campaign isn't the government so can't set out exactly what will happen, so the Remain campaign cynically uses this to sow fear, doubt and uncertainty, and conceal the alternatives to something that it admits is deeply flawed. The fact is that the UK and ALL our European friends will rise to the opportunity presented by Brexit and build a better Europe; don't let Europe down by being fooled into believing in a status quo which simply isn't on offer. A Leave vote is a freedom vote - not just for the UK but for the whole of Europe (including the oppressed Greeks where another round of punishment is being lined up for after our referendum). A Remain vote is essentially anti-European, anti-democratic, and the dumbest vote you will ever cast in your entire life!

More highly venomous snakes here too - I put it all down to global warming.

Have they got this angle covered? Poll: Majority of Swedes want to leave EU in case of Brexit I think you'd be in a race with the Danes though. The few Norwegians I've had contact with really really want us to leave. It would actually give Norway and EFTA a lot more clout as we'll undoubtedly rejoin that club quite quickly. It was daft to leave EFTA - and also cut our commonwealth ties - in the first place. Interesting that the Remanians never want to talk about EFTA.

Oh look, I've found some more "racist" posters!