threegee

Easy: It was a straightforward question, and not any sort of declaration. You misunderstood. You said: but if you give enough money without working why would you work? The work ethic means you work because there is a moral imperative to work, and the money is secondary or completely irrelevant. I see quite a few people here working on the land that don't have to. Some of them are totally geriatric, yet they come quite long distance to their family patch and put in hours in the sun. Some of the produce is simply gifted to friends and distant family. Why do they do it? They have a built-in need to do it, they've always done it, and it keeps them healthier. Without this they don't feel themselves a worthwhile member of society. Of course I agree with you about benefits etc.

But the glove factory went bust didn't it? It provided much needed employment at the time, so are you saying it should have paid more and gone bust sooner, or paid less and have kept going longer? Or... is there an alternative view? You don't believe in the work ethic then? The other way of looking at the stay at homes is that they free up work for someone who needs it more.

Be advised that I was under no illusions that I'd used the Swedish form of the word, and was relying on the intelligence of the reader. If you didn't get so hung up on the presentation all the time you'd have a far better chance at deriving meaning. Though, admittedly, Tony often taxes my own ability to derive true meaning beyond limit. OK, there's a 't' in there too, and you reverse the order of the first and last words - but my version is far more appropriate.

Money isn't - and has never been - my main ambition in life. For the last 10 years I've worked for nothing on things I truly believe in, and things which interest me. I can do this because I have very modest tastes (never took a holiday for practically all my working life), and now live in a place where the things I actually need generally cost less. You? I'm not sure what you are actually getting at. Are you saying that the wages there were derisory?

When did you meet up with Tony's Hate-No-Hope friends? Likely not when they were physically intimidating some poor pensioners who didn't agree with them.

It has to be through natural wastage I'm afraid. All we can do is to stop any more coming, though we could pay them to go. As Merkel has proved, paying other countries to solve your own illegal economic migrant problem can be very expensive. Though I reckon we could send the bill to A. Blair Esq. as he's mostly responsible and seems to have pretty deep pockets. When Enoch Powell suggested paying a few migrants to go way back there were howls of outrage from the left, but they aren't howling at Merkel and the EU for some strange reason. Rounding up illegals is quite another matter, but then here do you send them that will have them?

Translation error: he actually meant kraft till en marxist clique

If they (Poles) are in the country legally and behaving themselves they have established rights under international law and can't be told to go anywhere. Freedom from the EU is about getting our country back from Brussels control - so's we can say who comes in the future. It's about giving everyone in the world a fair chance of doing jobs we need to be done, but keeping out the criminals, terrorists, and dregs of other countries who want to leech on our welfare state. Boris is a lot brighter (and more patriotic) than anyone in your international Marxist outfits. I won't vote for him, but the people who do vote for him do so for good reasons, and scoffing them when you have absolutely no answers yourself is in itself risible.

No, most of their products don't come from the EU. The sort of stuff I buy from them here comes from the Far East and a lot of that is factored through Milomex in the UK. Leaving the EU could actually make the UK a sweet place for Lidl to do business in. Let's say for example that the the Brussels Bureaucrats issue a directive that all batteries must be bright red because it makes them easier to sort from the rubbish. But Lidl's buyer in the Far East finds a batch of otherwise excellent batteries that are green. The buyer knows he can't sell them in the EU but he can sell them in the UK because the UK government doesn't try to manage every detail of its citizens lives. Buyer says OK make me some red batteries at your list price, but I will take that lot of green ones off your hands at half price as part of the same shipment. UK customers get a much better deal on batteries than continental Lidl customers, and continental buyers pay the bulk of the shipping container charges - the UK rapidly becomes THE place for Lidl to sell all sorts of things at bargain prices leveraging its huge buying power, but with its normal sane quality controls. BTW why should people who voted Leave be discriminated against simply because they don't conform to your rigid mindset? I really can't believe that was a serious remark though; please tell me you were joking?

I've seen this a couple of times: the facebook generation only talk to the facebook generation, so huge group-think sets in and they completely discount the fact that anyone might have opposing views. When they come up against the first person that doesn't agree, that person is immediately labelled as an extremist. Then, reality starts to dawn and they become indignant and outraged. I suppose it's just normal student protest updated: for every problem there's one simple solution: a protest march condemning those who just will not see! Perhaps we should be thankful for on-line petitions - they keep the streets tidier.

RACIST!!

Big one this: Nando's (Portuguese) Chicken Restaurants will not close down as earlier claimed.

Always difficult to understand how this was going to occur, but maybe there was a cunning plan to issue free microlight aircraft to illegals and provide them with a crash (oops!) flying course? And, of course, as the whole point was to get to the UK wouldn't they just disappear into the towns if they did get across The Channel?

Which Labour Party are you talking about? The Tony Blair International Capitalist one, or the Jeremy Corbyn International Marxist one? Unfortunately you can't mix and match policies as they will be at each other's throats for the next decade or more, and we need to move on from 20th century politics. Neither are anywhere near the British Labour Party that many of us often respectfully disagreed with, but conceded had some good policies at times. And, when the crunch came we all united around our country, and not around keeping wealthy career politicians (home and abroad) in the lifestyle they had become accustomed to. There's a lot to be said for only allowing people who've actually held down a real job for a couple of decades to be MPs. No more chummy double acts of the Blair/Brown Cameron/Osborne type for a start!

I think the single word answer is probably farming. The UK is full of people the EU buys with our own money; that's how the cancer of (super)state dependence spreads..

Nothing like as big a majority as in other parts of the NE. Won't be too many years before most of those 82K realise that they have a lot to thank the other 97K for! Older and wiser heads prevailing is seldom a bad thing.

You'll just have to hope for a Brexit every day then! I'm overjoyed that my cost of living has gone up sharply for now (but it won't get any worse than it got under global Gordon). Anyway, the inevitable demise of the overvalued Euros I have to find has been hastened a lot. Remember that the people who are betting against Sterling this morning are the people who've just lost a packet with their huge bookie bets on Remain, and are also the same people who failed to foresee the debt crisis when it was staring them fully in the face. With a competent PM - one that's not essentially anti-British - and a chancellor that's not a vindictive school-yard bully boy, Sterling will inevitably climb again. Put your country first, and it will do what it has always done and look after you!

I think that's a rationalisation of what is going on, and a bit removed from reality. I know a substantial private investor in the Irish Republic and he has a rather large capital sum ready to switch from Euros into Sterling if Sterling shows any substantial weakness on Brexit. He's not betting against UK enterprise, and I'm not either! Even though I need Euros to pay bills we keep as little as possible in Euros because some time quite soon we'll be very glad we did! I'm NOT saying there aren't bumps in the road either way, but the independent UK route will have far fewer of them over time.

So... either Leave has no chance at all or Osborne was lying in his teeth. I wonder which? As the politicos never tire of reminding us "the markets don't like uncertainty". This is true, but they do like market opportunity, and Leave is a huge opportunity to build a more outward looking economy. Osborne been dying to order the markets to close, and take measures to punish voters, but a vindictive, game-playing, politician like this has no right to be anywhere near the controls of our economy. If the Tory party don't remove him very quickly they deserve everything they get from the electorate. His reputation as a bully at Eton school seems well deserved.

This is very true. I'd only add that voters must be allowed to make mistakes then correct them at the earliest practical opportunity. That's why Cameron's stance on this referendum is so damnable. Douglas Carswells' right of recall bill should become law, but there is huge vested interest amongst our elites who won't countenance any such proposal. The public needs to wake up to this opportunity to extend our democracy, and demand that this is enacted.

And of course academics with huge vested interests in maintaining their generous funding don't? After all they are academics (like me?) and not horribly biased journalists. I detect a bit of snobbery in there re. mass circulation papers too. Just because they present as they do doesn't mean that what they have to say is any less valid. Actually I think you'll find that right wing publications (like the Spectator) go out of their way to employ left wing journalists to fertilise their offering with challenging ideas (and don't censor their on-line comments). The reverse certainly isn't the case, as anyone with challenging ideas posting on the Guardian website can testify. So, the popular conception of a mirrored dichotomy between left and right is well clear of reality.

You decry my use of adjectives, then deploy adjectives yourself without attaching them to anything specific - anything which can be counter argued. That comprises a cheap shot, because you aren't prepared to have your own ideas tested.

If you had nothing in mind then by definition it was a cheap shot. Yes, I feel very strongly about the EU because I get to see its affect on real people. Which journalist would that be? Tell me what field has this Professor got his "20 years experience" in, and what will happen to that experience when we Brexit? That he's EU funded is undeniable, and he actually spouts the civil service line. You constantly make pretence of being dispassionate about things but, as revealed here, this is far from the truth. If ANY of the detailed argument I have presented above against Dugan's position are fallacious then please argue your case, else you've lost the argument!