Canny lass

That's true Adam. It would be a boring world if we all thought the same.

Spare a thought for all the housewives at that time. What a job it must have been keeping your home and children clean.Vacuum-cleaners weren't exactly 2 a penny. Carpet sweepers, at best, were all they had to clean rugs and floors with and they couldn't have been much help in the constant battle against soot. No, it was good old-fashioned elbow grease, carbolic soap and scrubbing brushes that were the order of the day. Keeping children clean and tidy must also have been a nightmare. Washing days were at least 2 days long. Washing machines when I was a child were hand driven and the 'poss-tub' and 'poss-stick' (sometimes called a dolly) were common place. I remember being allowed, as a child to get into the tub and 'poss' with my feet. I thought it was great fun. My mother probably just thought she would save getting the bath out for me later. If washing was a labour of love, then getting the washing dried was even more so! It was almost impossible to dry washing outdoors. Not because of the weather but because of the soot in the air. I remember sitting down to tea in the sitting room/ kitchen and not knowing who I was sharing the table with at times, as there would be a double bed sheet hanging on the line that stretched from one side of the room to the other at all times. The sheet reached down to the table, completely blocking the view. Yet just look at some of the class photos being exhibited here on this site. How well turned out the children were. They were a credit to the hard working mothers of the era. Adam, you say you would like the pits back. You say your grandads would go down the pits again if they could. I'm sure the camaraderie in the pits was second to none and worth returning for but how would your grandmothers like the pits back?

Good try!

Thanks Brettly. the last option sounds the most simple. However, I'm still wondering about this thing with paragraphs that Keith (L) brought up. When I write a text i usually just bash away with Arial font. I complete the text first and don't usually process it until it's fineshed. I know on the last occasion, however, that I changed the font about half way through. I'd realised it was going to be quite long and changed to font of the type used in newspapers and books. It's supposed to be easier on the eye they say, in my profession anyhow. Most of the paragraphs were placed/altered when the text had been completed - as is normal for me. When I pasted in the text in Bedders it came up as almost handwritten. It looked OK so I thought what the heck and posted it. The posted text was entirely different with both the fonts I'd used in the original text in alternate paragraphs. I've had problems when I've sent attachments in e-mails (transferring via USB). If I send the text as an atachment it arrives at it's destination just fine. However, If I just paste the text into the main body of the e-mail it goes all to pot somewhere along the way. It looks fine when I send it off. Could there be something wrong with either my computer or the USB I'm using? One last question, did you mean 'Microsoft' Word? I've never heard of 'Microshaft' Word. Oh how I envy you young people who know all about these things. Thanks again!

Oh Lord what have I started!!

After reading your comment I'm now wondering if my problem also has something to do with paragraphs. I had another look at the text I posted and the typeface has changed with each new paragraph. I'll try your suggestion. Thanks.

Sorry Symptoms, you know how it is with women and the gift of the gabb! I'll just keep quiet shall I?

Keith (Lockey) You lost me somewhere between "Hello" and "with regards to". I think Keith's (the otherin's) suggestion of throwing it in a bath of luke-warm soapy water is easier. Only problem is it's hard to find a bath here. Only showers and saunas.

Thanks Malcolm, I'll try that. Now that you mention it I have had complaints from others that some of my texts are just gobbeldygook by the time they arrive.

... might have been on it's whotsit.

Shucks! and there was me thinking it was the hoojackapivvy with a thingamy on it's doodah.

Can any of you computer experts explain to me what's happening when I copy and paste from a word document to this site. I have a laptop for work which I refuse to connect to the Internet (too many bad experiences). However, It's very convenient to be able to write in different places rather than sitting at a desk. I've developed the habit of writing texts on the laptop, transferring to a USB-'thing' (don't know what these are called in English) anything I want to send over the Internet and sending them from another, much older computer. Did this on this site a couple of days ago and it looked fine when I pasted it in, even if it wasn't the same typeface I'd written it in. It was at least the same typeface throughout the document. When it was posted the typeface had changed to a few different types. Is it something I'm doing wrong? Simple explanations only thank you (female, getting on in years and not the least bit technical).

Quite right Keith, we don't know who did it. It may well have been a 70-year old arsonist rebelling about a cut in pensions! However, from a behavioural point of view it could well have been the group we're discussing here. Really we're discussing behaviour and not the burning of picnic tables. I agree 100% that the meaning of respect, whether for other people, their feelings or their property, should be taught at home and during the early formative years. My argument is that this is less and less possible because family life is more or less non-existant today. Home, amid the security of the family, is undoubtedly the best place to test boundaries at an early age. It's there we learn a lot about ourselves and others and the generally accepted codes of conduct in society. I think our generation may have been the last to experience the phenomenon! If a child has that grounding it's not too difficult for a teacher to build on it. However, it is not a teacher's job to 'teach' respect. All teachers are qualified at university level in their chosen subject(s) but, as far as I'm aware, there is no subject called 'respect' to study so how can they be expected to teach it?As you say, very often the first hue and cry is "it's the schools fault" but I think it's this lack of 'teaching respect' they are referring to. I also think that schools can be apportioned a fair share of the blame. Not bacause of what's being taught but because of how it's being taught and to whom. Really it's not the fault of school or the teachers, it's the fault of politicians who's only interest is to shine brightest of all on the European, educational night sky. As for the bad language Keith, don't get me started again. That's another hobby-horse!

EXACTLY! we'll have come a long way in solving the problem when our generation can admit that we ourselves have played a large part in this. Not just because we've been too busy amassing things materialistic - we've also been too busy voting in the wrong politicians.

Couldn't agree with you more, Mercuryg! They are in the minority and as I pointed out very few get praised for the things they are good at unless it's of an academic/theoretic nature. However, I think this minority group could be a lot smaller if schools accepted that children, while equal as far as their rights are concerned are not equal as far as their ability is concerned. if the aim in schools was for each child to develop as far as possible within the scope of their ability, rather than aiming for a pass for all at the same level. if parents were better att setting boundaries if we stopped treating children as adults the minute they are born - or at least by counterbalancing their rights with their responsibilities. Malcolm, I'm not trying to make excuses for these children, or their parents. I'm trying to find reasons for their behaviour. If we don't find the reasons, then we've no chance of changing the behaviour. I really believe thera are many youngsters who go down this road who could be saved the journey if only they had the right map to follow.

Now you've got me on my hobby-horse again. This is gonna be a long one so go and make yourself a cuppa before you start reading ... I think the cause of vandalism is complicated and has many different factors involved. I don't think we can lay the blame at the feet of any one person/authority. Some very good points have been raised here. Vic, you lay the blame on parenting, schooling and to a degree employment, or rather the lack of these. Symptoms, you say that the media is to blame, partly because of violence on TV and partly because TV has made children more aware of their rights and more prone to demand them. Keith (Lockey) you say that it stems from some innate quality. I agree with you all but I think it's difficult to separate the one from the other. They are closely intertwined. I agree Vic that parents aren't teaching their children the meaning of respect. There may be a variety of reasons for that, one of which I feel to be the rapidly decreasing amount of time which parents and children spend together. Today, both parents often work, whether it be to make ends meet or to be able to live their lives in the manner to which they've become accustomed. This leaves evenings and weekends for the essentials of running a household. Not much time over for children there! Children themselves don't make it easy either. Today they are more active than ever, have more free time and above all more money than ever, so they are hardly ever at home. Then there's schooling. Is it a teacher's job to teach children the meaning of respect? I think not. The foundations for understanding the meaning of respect should already have been laid, pre-school, by the parents, who should also know that their responsibility doesn't end when the child starts school. A teacher can reinforce the work of the parents but he/she cannot be expected to replace the work of the parents. Teachers have neither the time nor the resources. I do think however, that a large part of the behavior we see in young people today may have its roots in the schools – not so much in what teacher's are, or are not, teaching there but rather in the political decisions being made concerning the way in which it is taught and even to whom it is taught. Which form current day education should take is being debated politically, not just here and in Britain but in most places in Europe – and in Canada also I imagine Vic. That in itself is a good thing and it's clear from discussions on this site that there are more than me hoping for a change for the better. Children, it's often said, are our future and schools are society's direct opportunity to influence them. Unfortunately, all influence isn't good influence. Changes for the worse can and do occur. I think you'll agree that some schools have in fact become worse instead of better due to some changes previously made in the system. If we go back to the 50s and 60s quite a lot of children left school, prepared for university (remember the grammar school system)? Many others left school prepared for a white collar job (remember the streaming system?) and many others left school prepared for a so-called blue collar job. And let's not forget the apprenticeship system which allowed children to continue their education, learning a trade, after basic schooling was completed. The main point here is that those who weren't going on to higher education left school prepared for working. We don't see much of that today. Then some politician came along and decided that we should do away with this sort of elitism and we did, but quality of education paid the price as standards dropped so that everybody could achieve the same academic result and nobody is any longer 'prepared' for work. I've lost count of how many young people I've met who prefer unemployment to taking a job for which they deem themselves to be over-qualified just because they've got a college education. Nobody wants to start at the bottom and work their way up anymore. Unfortunately, we need people on the bottom rung of the ladder in all industries if the wheels are to keep turning. While I'm not one to advocate elitism, I am one who believes in educating children to the best of their abilities –their abilities being the key word here. Unfortunately, and I speak from my experiences with A-level students here, the ability of the child is often overlooked. All children are equal and have a right to the same education, they say here, and I agree wholeheartedly. However, I cannot agree that all children are equal in their ability. Nevertheless, all children are expected on completion of their basic schooling to be eligible for higher (A-level) studies. On completion of their A-level studies they are expected to be eligible for university at least in the 4 core subjects. In other words, the goal is way too high for many of these children and I believe this is so throughout Europe as the one country after the other tries to have 'the best' education system, best being measured only in terms of numbers. The result is many young people who are totally out of their depth in school, many young people who are bored in school and many young people who really would rather be anywhere else than in school. For these children every day is a nightmare when they are constantly reminded, by the mere fact of not coping, of their academic shortcomings. Ironically they are rarely praised for their practical skills though many are enormously gifted. It's theory which counts! Can you imagine what it would be like to be obliged to go 5 days a week for up to 3 years to a job that made you feel like that? These children don't really want to be there. Many know they are out of their depth but they feel the pressure from society – and peers – to be there. It must be soul destroying! There, I believe, you have the root of the problem. A lot of the bad behavior starts here, born out of boredom, frustration and a feeling of inadequacy that drives youngsters to 'stand out' among the crowd in other – unfortunately, less socially acceptable - ways. Many are cheeky to teachers and deliberately cause disturbances in class for no other reason than to get a minute's respite from the pressure caused by being there. I think Keith (Lockey) this might be the group you are referring to, who would be the same, whatever the social or employment conditions (in today's system I might add). You call them bad, and doubtless some of them are, but really it's sad. And the downward spiral doesn't stop there. We don't have to look too far to find one of the greatest threats to schooling today – an all too rigid application of human rights, which Symptoms has already touched on, would appear to be eroding the very foundations of what little educational system there is left. The reason is quite simple. Human rights are based to a certain degree on a liberal, anti-paternalistic way of thinking. That is to say: it's wrong to govern what people do both during and with their lives, as long as what they do doesn't encroach on other people's right to do what they want to do. We can then ask the question - How does this relate to children? Take the Montissori schools for instance. From day one it is the child who decides where they want to do their work, what work they want to do, who they want to work with etc. In the ordinary state run schools, at least at high school level, they decide which subjects they want to do and later, which ones they want to drop. Later they are given almost total responsibility for their studies. Nobody wants a 4 year-old to decide what he wants to eat. Nobody wants to see 6 year olds running around the streets at all hours and nobody wants a 13 year old to decide on what sort and how many drugs they should take. Despite that, there are plenty of politicians and pressure groups throughout Europe who campaign diligently for the child's right to decide his/her own future. However, there is one really big difference between children and adults which leads me to believe that children should not be subject to the anti-paternalistic principles and that is quite simply that CHILDREN ARE NOT MATURE!! To not be mature means not being able to make all sorts of informed decisions. Children have not acquired the necessary knowledge or the life experience to be able to do this. Learning to make decisions is part of growing up and, correct me if I'm wrong, growing up is a part of childhood. As adults shouldn't we be aware that a child's right to freedom of choice is somewhat restricted by immaturity and as adults shouldn't we be doing what we can to resist the political pressures which seek to widen the child's sphere of autonomy? At the same time let's remind parents, who de facto have the right to make decisions on behalf of their children (consent to surgery, to mention just one instance), that the wishes of a child are not always in agreement with what's best for the child. Children need boundaries to feel secure and a natural part of growing up and learning about the world we live in is that we continually test the boundaries. We need to know where the limit lies and how far we can go. Just knowing gives a sense of security and parents need to know when to say yes and how to say no. Parents should take Adam's advice (well done Adam) when they're 'threatened' and call their children'sbluff. It's a pretty empty bluff if you know you're not abusing your child. Better still offer to go with them and make the report. Feeling a lot better having got that off my chest!!

and don't you just love that orang-utan! Didn't know they had them in Bedlington woods!

I can't explain the point of it Malcolm but you've got to admit, it's a better way for young people to spend their time than burning picnic tables!

My man also watched it several times. He's building his own car at the minute (well, the last 18 months actually)! He thought it was brilliant. Myself, It made me rather ashamed knowing how many times I've complained about the price of repairs and service. I never knew it was so much intricate work.

Cliff was a former class mate of mine. I heard recently that he made it to Chief Inspector in the Northumberland police force but died sadly at the age of 55. That would be about 10 years ago by my reckoning.

I think Bedlington's looking great. Can't wait to get there and see it for myself!

Now you're talking!! Well 'sun-tanned' bloke.Didn't he come into the ring with a tigerskin, head and all, draped over him?

Now don't go spoiling all my memories! I've already had a shock finding out that every minute of it was put up!

You don't half get about Foxy!!

Don't know if Keith's house is there but I can see my old flat on Arundel (Drive Or was it Arundel Close)?